Fraud/Theft: What can be done?

malazn mafia · 29-01-2015, 12:50 AM

If someone has impersonated me and withdrawn funds from my account, and the person is known to me and the bank fraud squad has identified them, what is this person in for as far as penalties go? So far the bank is saying there is a chance of the person walking away scot free, as the amount was around $10k only, and the bank has insurance to cover their losses. The state police probably wouldn't even have a word of it and brush it off as some civil matter, but what about the AFP? Are they ones to take things seriously outside the realms of hoon driving and speeding? Or do the AFP only care when someone steals from the government? Not a fan of liars (lawyers), so they will purely be a last case proposition, I would much rather sort this outside the legal system, legal or not legally.

Itsme · 29-01-2015, 01:22 AM

Sounds like it is the bank calling the shots whether the person should be prosecuted or not!

Feathers · 29-01-2015, 01:40 AM

This happened years ago to my Grandmother. Someone stole her mail, and then used incorrect details to open an internet account in her name (They got her real name wrong, and her date of birth, yet Telstra allowed them to set up the account?)

Then, using that internet connection they got into her bank accounts and took $70k in about 7 weeks.
By that stage my Grandmother was pretty out of it, so I don't think she ever knew about it, and Dad had Power of Attorney, so he dealt with Telstra, the bank, and the police.

The way it was explained to me when I took paperwork in to the detectives, is that the bank reimburse you the money stolen, and that makes them the victim.
They then claim the amount on their insurance, making the insurance company responsible for chasing up the amount from the offender. We never had to go to court over it.

In my Grandmother's case, the woman who'd committed the offences was already known to Police, and had recently been released from prison because she'd been caught doing the same things before.
Call into your local station and ask to speak to the duty sergeant about it, they do investigate and prosecute these offences.

**aussiblue** · 29-01-2015, 02:14 AM

Not an AFP matter. Talk to the CIB Fraud Squad if your state has one. Best to make an appointment and call in in person rather than telephone; it will indicate your level of interest. The Police may prosecute if it is straight forward and the evidence is readily available. But as other have explained, it up to the bank insurers if the wish to press charges or pursue separate recovery action. The legal costs to take recovery action are not inconsiderable so they will only usually consider it if the person is of means and the are likely to recover the money plus their legal costs.

creative · 29-01-2015, 10:45 AM

judging by your user name.....

just send the "flat foot" Freddy and Jim "the gun" round to make some concrete boots!

Sorry, no help I know!

malazn mafia · 29-01-2015, 11:55 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by creative

judging by your user name.....

just send the "flat foot" Freddy and Jim "the gun" round to make some concrete boots!

Sorry, no help I know!

When the said offender is part of your family, things are a bit different..

ford71V8 · 29-01-2015, 12:33 PM

I had the owner of a tradie company remove funds from my account without my permission. They had my details from the initial deposit and when the job went pear-shaped he decided to pay himself the balance.
I was bloody fuming. Contacted my bank, wrote an account of the situation as a stat dec and had it witnessed/signed. Outcome was Zilch. He replied back that he had an agreed contract in place and was owed money.
Job was eventually finished but gee its still a sore point with me.
If you are in SA, NEVER use The Trademan to supply and build your carport/verandah/etc. Absolute joke of a business with a rude, irresponsible, hothead at the helm. He is still on my list

Itsme · 29-01-2015, 01:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

When the said offender is part of your family, things are a bit different..

Well you do have a dilemma, this **** destroys families as I have been through some money matters not fraud nonetheless money problems.

Hope you get it sorted.

blueoval · 29-01-2015, 01:50 PM

80% of frauds are usually family related according to my mrs who used to work as a bank teller. You wouldn't think your own family members would bend you over like that. Who needs enemies when you have family members that do that to ya.

Hope you get it sorted out soon MM

AlanD · 29-01-2015, 02:28 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

If someone has impersonated me and withdrawn funds from my account, and the person is known to me and the bank fraud squad has identified them, what is this person in for as far as penalties go? So far the bank is saying there is a chance of the person walking away scot free, as the amount was around $10k only, and the bank has insurance to cover their losses. The state police probably wouldn't even have a word of it and brush it off as some civil matter, but what about the AFP? Are they ones to take things seriously outside the realms of hoon driving and speeding? Or do the AFP only care when someone steals from the government? Not a fan of liars (lawyers), so they will purely be a last case proposition, I would much rather sort this outside the legal system, legal or not legally.

Hi Malanz,

As has been pointed out, if the bank has reimbursed you the loss then the victim becomes the bank and they and their insurers have the ball in their court. If they have not reimbursed you then you are still the victim and ordinarily can take action via the police or civilly if the police will not act.

However, in "impersonating" you the perpetrator, in my view, would be guilty of identity theft and you would have grounds to seek prosecution of the offender, providing the state where the offence took place has appropriate legislation in place. I do not believe that the police have an ability to refuse to investigate complaint where there exists a "prima fascia" case of wrongdoing. But my understanding is now some years out of date - so I may be wrong.

Given the perpetrator is a family member "greys" the situation, which I understand. But I would offer that attempting to gain "satisfaction" by means other than a proper legal process may cause you to become a person of interest to the police - so I'd advise that you take appropriate advice and act with care.

Cheers

Simple6 · 29-01-2015, 06:17 PM

Don't know where you're based, but it is a fraud incident.

If I understand correctly - you essentially had money stolen from you. That's an offence and you're the victim.

Regardless of whether you've been compensated or reimbursed - an offence has still occurred with you as a victim.

Think of it this way - if someone steals your car and the insurance company pays you out, then later on the car is recovered - the offence still occurred and someone needs to be prosecuted. Regardless of being paid out, it was your car and it was stolen from you. Sure when giving a statement you'll likely want to add at the end that insurance company "x" paid you out, but you were the victim.

Same thing applies here. Someone stolen money from you - you're a victim, therefore a statement from you outlining what has occurred is enough to get the ball rolling. Of course, the investigating police officer would likely need to work with the bank as well to get anywhere with a prosecution, but that's out of your hands.

AlanD · 30-01-2015, 10:38 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Simple6

Don't know where you're based, but it is a fraud incident.

If I understand correctly - you essentially had money stolen from you. That's an offence and you're the victim.

Regardless of whether you've been compensated or reimbursed - an offence has still occurred with you as a victim.

Think of it this way - if someone steals your car and the insurance company pays you out, then later on the car is recovered - the offence still occurred and someone needs to be prosecuted. Regardless of being paid out, it was your car and it was stolen from you. Sure when giving a statement you'll likely want to add at the end that insurance company "x" paid you out, but you were the victim.

Same thing applies here. Someone stolen money from you - you're a victim, therefore a statement from you outlining what has occurred is enough to get the ball rolling. Of course, the investigating police officer would likely need to work with the bank as well to get anywhere with a prosecution, but that's out of your hands.

Hmm,

Not if my understanding of the Banking Act, which governs the manner in which banks can conduct their business is still valid, mainly because no money i.e. cash was taken from the possession of the OP.

It was explained to me by a knowledgeable person some years ago and changes may have occurred that I'm not conversant with.

Essentially, when a depositor deposits funds into a banking account they are saying "here is a loan that I'm trusting you to repay, with interest, according to the rules that govern this type of account when I make application to you to repay to me all or part of the funds standing to my credit in that account". At that point the "money" becomes the bank's to use at it's discretion in generating income to repay the capital standing in the account plus interest.

Now fraud was committed here but it was against the bank, not the depositor, because the bank delivered to the "fraudster" some of "their" funds and debited the value, incorrectly, against the OP's account. When that error was established the bank re-instated the account's original credit balance - no money was "stolen" from the OP.

Thus the OP has no case for fraud against their relative and a request for the police to take action will (should?) fall on deaf ears because the OP would have had no grounds for complaint for fraud against them. If the bank decides to take action then it would be another matter entirely because they have had a fraudulent action committed against them.

I'll reiterate that I believe the OP has a case for identity theft committed against them and a complaint on these grounds should result in action by the police. In some states a guilty verdict carries a penalty of up to five years jail, I believe.

I'll be interested in any response based on a better understanding of the current rules existing under the banking act or its equivalent - It will bring me up to date.

Cheers

**GasoLane** · 30-01-2015, 12:05 PM

Did the bank reimburse you with the 'stolen' funds. ?

malazn mafia · 30-01-2015, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Did the bank reimburse you with the 'stolen' funds. ?

Still in process

burnz · 30-01-2015, 03:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

If someone has impersonated me and withdrawn funds from my account, and the person is known to me and the bank fraud squad has identified them, what is this person in for as far as penalties go? So far the bank is saying there is a chance of the person walking away scot free, as the amount was around $10k only, and the bank has insurance to cover their losses. The state police probably wouldn't even have a word of it and brush it off as some civil matter, but what about the AFP? Are they ones to take things seriously outside the realms of hoon driving and speeding? Or do the AFP only care when someone steals from the government? Not a fan of liars (lawyers), so they will purely be a last case proposition, I would much rather sort this outside the legal system, legal or not legally.

I have read all the posts in here,,,

my sister had a similar problem, she got a thank you note for paying out a bank loan early.. what loan?

at that time she worked for NSW CIB,, and simply put it not their problem as it's a federal matter..
and the AFP will pursue the matter.. so expect a visit.

TheSneakiness · 30-01-2015, 03:59 PM

Doesn't this have all the hallmarks of identity theft and that person has committed fraud?

If you are that low in life to do that to family then you should be chased by the authorities and put away.

AlanD · 30-01-2015, 05:17 PM

Hmm (again).

Get's messier by the minute.

I understood that the OP had had the incorrect debit on their account reversed. My mistake.

Is the bank now asking how the fraud was committed. I ask because every time I have used a teller (person) at my bank to effect a withdrawal, despite the fact that I am known by sight to all of the branch's tellers they still ask me to input the PIN for my account. If the "fraudster" used a correct PIN to identify themselves then how did they get it - banks' are very clear about how PINs should be guarded and the circumstances when an account holder may be liable for any loss by use of their PIN.

I'll stand by my comments in post 12:

1. Fraud against the bank, based on the details provided by the OP, has been committed and it is up to them (the bank) to pursue the matter, if they wish.

2. The OP is a victim of identity theft (again based on the OP's provided description) and can seek "satisfaction" via the legal processes available to them, provided that the state where the "offence" took place has appropriate legislation in place.

I'll bow out here and leave it to the OP, their bank, and the police of the state concerned to sort out the matter.

Cheers

Itsme · 30-01-2015, 07:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by AlanD

Hmm,

Not if my understanding of the Banking Act, which governs the manner in which banks can conduct their business is still valid, mainly because no money i.e. cash was taken from the possession of the OP.

It was explained to me by a knowledgeable person some years ago and changes may have occurred that I'm not conversant with.

Essentially, when a depositor deposits funds into a banking account they are saying "here is a loan that I'm trusting you to repay, with interest, according to the rules that govern this type of account when I make application to you to repay to me all or part of the funds standing to my credit in that account". At that point the "money" becomes the bank's to use at it's discretion in generating income to repay the capital standing in the account plus interest.

Now fraud was committed here but it was against the bank, not the depositor, because the bank delivered to the "fraudster" some of "their" funds and debited the value, incorrectly, against the OP's account. When that error was established the bank re-instated the account's original credit balance - no money was "stolen" from the OP.

Thus the OP has no case for fraud against their relative and a request for the police to take action will (should?) fall on deaf ears because the OP would have had no grounds for complaint for fraud against them. If the bank decides to take action then it would be another matter entirely because they have had a fraudulent action committed against them.

I'll reiterate that I believe the OP has a case for identity theft committed against them and a complaint on these grounds should result in action by the police. In some states a guilty verdict carries a penalty of up to five years jail, I believe.

I'll be interested in any response based on a better understanding of the current rules existing under the banking act or its equivalent - It will bring me up to date.

Cheers

If the OP went to the bank to withdraw funds & it was insufficient due to money taken out by fraudster then I think OP has a valid case to have them charged, Banks do not automatically refund straight away.

MITCHAY · 30-01-2015, 08:13 PM

As far as I would be concerned, whether you have been reimbursed for your loss or not is irrelevant.

Do you have to actually incur damages for it to be identity theft is probably the question? I wouldn't have thought so but definitely worth a follow up.

LG17 · 30-01-2015, 08:41 PM

Fraud is a funny one...

19 months ago I was defrauded.
The day after I realised what had happened I went straight to the Dutton Park Police and reported it.
I have all the hard evidence including a written confession and to this day the bloke still hasn't been charged. He is on bail on other matters (drugs) and the police woman I have been dealing with (I have NEVER had one phone call from the police) says she will deal with it after the outstanding charges have been finalised. When will that be? NFI! :(

**aussiblue** · 30-01-2015, 10:51 PM

Quote:

at that time she worked for NSW CIB,, and simply put it not their problem as it's a federal matter..
and the AFP will pursue the matter.. so expect a visit.

The WA Police, like me ,think it's a State Police matter not AFP:
http://www.police.wa.gov.au/Crimetyp...9/Default.aspx

Quote:

STATE OFFENCES – WA POLICE ISSUES
◾Bank related fraud
◾Criminal conduct by an employee or business partner
◾Internet auction/online retail fraud
◾Technology-enabled crime
◾Government fraud – State
◾Real estate fraud
◾Criminal/misconduct by a solicitor or lawyer
◾Work cover fraud

FEDERAL OFFENCES – NOT WA POLICE ISSUES
◾Counterfeit banknotes
◾Government fraud – Federal
◾Medicare fraud
◾Centrelink fraud
◾Child support fraud
◾Investment fraud
◾Share trading fraud
◾Telecommunication fraud
◾Complaints relating to actions of a company director or office holder
◾Superannuation financial advisor fraud or misconduct

Snip~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~~
Bank related fraud

If you have had money stolen or taken without your permission from your bank account via credit card, electronic funds transfers, cheque or ATM withdrawal.

Contact your bank or financial institution, and where advised by them, report the incident to the Police Assistance Centre on 131444.

NOTE: If required to report to Police, you will be asked to provide the following detail: Account Name, Account Type, Bank, Branch Location, BSB and account or Card number, and disputed transaction details (amount, date and time of transaction, business transaction conducted with).
Please have this information when you call to make your report.

burnz · 30-01-2015, 11:18 PM

identity crime...

http://www.afp.gov.au/policing/fraud/identity-crime

**aussiblue** · 31-01-2015, 01:30 AM

Yes but I don't see where identity theft was involved in this case.

**hawkgirl** · 01-02-2015, 09:55 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by malazn mafia

If someone has impersonated me and withdrawn funds from my account,.

there's identity fraud right there

some time ago a customer made a very large purchase in the webshop. The residential address was sydney, but he requested the items be shipped to a PO Box in rural WA as he "was moving to a mines job there". 2 days later his very very peeved brother (with the same first initial) called in - the first guy was his younger brother who had been impersonating him & draining the older brothers accounts. We did indeed have to deal with the bank & the police on that one.

malazn mafia · 06-02-2015, 12:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by hawkgirl

there's identity fraud right there

some time ago a customer made a very large purchase in the webshop. The residential address was sydney, but he requested the items be shipped to a PO Box in rural WA as he "was moving to a mines job there". 2 days later his very very peeved brother (with the same first initial) called in - the first guy was his younger brother who had been impersonating him & draining the older brothers accounts. We did indeed have to deal with the bank & the police on that one.

The situation has got worse. Someone has requested a replacement sim for my mobile number, hijacked it and used that to authorise money transfers via online banking. Ironically a portion of the insurance money was stolen in this incident. This beats me, must be an inside job or this relative has links to some serious criminal ring. The bank has identified some weird names to which money has gone to. They could be ficititious aliases. The worst thing is the police are powerless to do anything, whether its about the mobile phone fraud, identity theft or fraud, and the officer insists that if the bank refuses to co-operate (which is a likely outcome, given that bank profitability and insurance are in abundance ), there is nothing they can do, even if all evidence points to said individual. Seems that in this country, speeding and hoon driving don't pay, but fraud and theft surely do. Why bother working or making an honest living ?

burnz · 06-02-2015, 05:50 AM

start moving your money out of the bank if they cant guarantee it wont be stolen.

blueoval · 06-02-2015, 11:24 AM

I would be shutting down that account and starting a new one with a new institute. This is BS.

**MercurySilver** · 06-02-2015, 01:07 PM

i wouldve changed EVERYTHING
bank phone passwords
house locks etc
some people are just ******

TheSneakiness · 06-02-2015, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by MercurySilver

i wouldve changed EVERYTHING
bank phone passwords
house locks etc
some people are just ******

Quote:

Originally Posted by blueoval

I would be shutting down that account and starting a new one with a new institute. This is BS.

This and this.

And I would get off the moral high horse and report said family member to the AFP now as harsh as it may come across. I would not hesitate to do that to anyone of my family members if they ****** me over like this.

Itsme · 06-02-2015, 05:25 PM

The biggest problem with identity theft is when some one starts taking out loans, getting fines etc & leaving you with debt, solicitor & police will put you in the right direction.
They could have more details other than bank, could be licence, birth certificates etc.

As Rapid Axe mentioned report the person who you think is doing it.