How did the Falcon/Commodore lose it all? - Page 2

Spammy · 10-12-2013, 10:04 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

Most popular car in Japan is Japanese, most popular car in Germany is German, most popular car in France is French.
Most popular car in Australia? Japanese or Korean.

.

Go to google and look up the population numbers and car export numbers for the four countries you list.

b0son · 10-12-2013, 10:06 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

I wasn't talking about sales, just enthusiasm for the brand. If it gets people back into Ford showrooms, it's done its job.

You mean like 'wow, that Mustang's nice... makes me want to go out and buy a Fiesta?'

Most people aren't enthusiasts. I don't see the Mustang appealing to very many people TBH.

XR Martin · 10-12-2013, 10:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spammy

Go to google and look up the population numbers and car export numbers for the four countries you list.

While im doing that you look up how much Government support those nations give to their industry compared to Australia.

Wretched · 10-12-2013, 10:14 AM

In my opinion the local made Commodore and Falcon suffered at the hands of many, the companies themselves and the governments.

The Manufacturers

Lack of innovation - both cars a largely unchanged in the last couple of decades. They have stuck to the same formula, large RWD sedan with largish engines. Ford in 2011/2012 introduced the EcoBoost, too late.
Where is the turbo diesels? Ford had two good ideas in just about forever, turbo the 6 and Territory, then they did nothing.
Lack of foresight - they sat on their hands for too long and did nothing, they had their heads in the sand while others innovated, improved and surpassed the locals. Ford and Holden relied far too much on their heritage and their traditional buyer. When times were good they should have been introducing or at least trying to expand their market, they couldn't have been that stupid to think they could survive on our market alone.
Quality Control - How long have they been building these cars? They still cannot get them right. Poorly constructed and cheap materials with early reliability issues too. Built to a price and it shows.
Where is the 5 year warranty? Jeez if Hyundai can do it then why not Ford? No faith in their product?
Technology and Vehicle standards - The locals were never known for being advanced in technology, always years behind the rest of the world. Funny thing is they are local arms of massive international organisations and appear to never have thought of introducing/reusing the technology used in other cars from other markets.
Value for Money - This has been a big issue in recent times. For instance, a G6ET, brilliant engine but that's about it, you get half leather/half vinyl seats and not much else. This is supposed to be the range topper for Ford. The expensive models just never felt that special. Where is the incentive for someone to shell out for a local over an imported prestige car?
Product Planning - What were these guys doing for the past decade and a bit? They should have been out there identifying with the market, get to know what it is they want out of a car. What is it about the Falcon and Commodore that they would like to change? And on that, Ford and Holden shouldn't have been afraid to change. Freshen the product up every couple of years. Yes it costs money but they are in the car business to make money and need to prove to customers why their product is better. Sedans are not as practical as they once were, the markets have expanded and new products introduced. Just look at VFACTS.
Reliance on Government Assistance - Relied too much on it. Assistance is fine but relying on it to survive is not sustainable.

The Governments

Introduced the Button plan - but that's it, they never revisited it and never sat with the companies to work out how to evolve it.
Kept providing handouts - There should have been many strings attached. These companies should have had to earn it, innovation, establishing new product ranges, exports, etc. Continuing the subsidies without any real governance was a mistake.
Encouraging makers to build efficient cars for their fleets instead of just abandoning them.
Should have adjusted or eliminated the ADR in conjunction with world wide standards. This would have assisted with export potentials.

The workers and unions also need an attitude adjustment. All companies are facing issues over the past few years. My company that I work for sheltered us over the GFC but now are seeing some difficulties and have put in place certain restrictions.
In any case employees need to understand that it isn't an US vs THEM thing.
Unions need to be brought into the 21st century, the bullying tactics are not needed and are seen as just desperation and pathetic.
It would be far better if unions did what they were supposed and negotiate and provide feedback to better the situation for not only the workers but also the company. They have to remember that without employed members there is no union.

zilo · 10-12-2013, 10:22 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

For a nation with its own auto industry, we have the lowest auto import duty in the World.

Try importing a vehicle into Korea, Thailand or Japan.
Suddenly that $30k car becomes $60k or even $100k+

Most popular car in Japan is Japanese, most popular car in Germany is German, most popular car in France is French.
Most popular car in Australia? Japanese or Korean.

For whatever reason the Governments have had no interest in protecting our auto industry, which is the biggest factor in it all.

The Australian government has identified GM and Ford as being foreign owned, with profits for the last million years being shipped back to America.

Enough is enough, the Aus tax payer has been milked long enough.

with a full inport model we will see how keen both are to win our business with inducements as the others have had to do.

MAD · 10-12-2013, 10:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHotGT

What people seem to forget is that you are comparing a hugely different timeframe of when the Falcon/Commdore was sucessful, to today...

Let me take you back 15 years ago - when the Falcon and Commdore were selling quite well. I've selected two cars to compare to paint you a very blatantly obvious picture....
1998 Ford AU Forte Petrol Sedan - RRP $29,990
1998 BMW E46 328i Petrol Sedan - RRP $86,800
There is a $56k difference between the two cars... or roughly 3 times the price...
Also consider what your wage was in 1998, what your mortgage was in 1998 etc...
NOW - Fast forward to today:
2013 Ford FGII XT Petrol Sedan - RRP $37,235
2013 BMW 328i Petrol Sedan - RRP $68,900
Now there is only $30k difference in it, or roughly less than HALF the price difference... So the Beemer is now $20k cheaper (20% cheaper), and is JAM packed with stuff (8spd Auto, way better fuel economy, etc etc etc) and the Falcon has INCREASED in price by $9k (25% more expensive)...

Ok - so it's numbers and jargon etc... I know I know... but now think about it properly... The Falcon costs more (though I still reckon it's cheap for what you get), the BMW costs less (and is FULL of good bits), and the gap between the two is less than it has EVER been before...

So, more people are taking the plunge, borrowing more, and buying European built cars. And that is just ONE example, I'm sure if you compared the relative Benz, Audi, VW, you'd see a similar trend... and I haven't even touched on the Jap cars that are better now than they've ever been in the past as well...

So to answer the OP - when did the Falcon/Commodore lose it all?? Well they didn't really... Everyone else just caught up........

I don't know about BMW but Ford definitely started to take a slide on quality after this too. Especially on the interior.

Price up, quality down.... Good business model.

Spammy · 10-12-2013, 10:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by XR6 Martin

While im doing that you look up how much Government support those nations give to their industry compared to Australia.

Government support for viable, large scale growng industries is fine in my book. Tipping my tax dollars into a dying, poorly managed black hole - not so good.

ltd · 10-12-2013, 10:56 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by zilo

The Australian government has identified GM and Ford as being foreign owned, with profits for the last million years being shipped back to America.

Enough is enough, the Aus tax payer has been milked long enough.

with a full inport model we will see how keen both are to win our business with inducements as the others have had to do.

Exactly correct.

vztrt · 10-12-2013, 11:58 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spammy

Go to google and look up the population numbers and car export numbers for the four countries you list.

You need to have a stable market at home before you export.

Quote:

Originally Posted by MAD

Price up, quality down.... Good business model.

Price is cheaper now to buy a Falcon then what it was.

**Dave R** · 10-12-2013, 12:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by b0son

You mean like 'wow, that Mustang's nice... makes me want to go out and buy a Fiesta?'

Absolutely, that's why hero cars exist- to build the brand. Brand image is everything and having one of the most legendary nameplates on earth in your stable (pun intended) is something every manufacturer wants. It gets people interested in the brand.

Spammy · 10-12-2013, 01:33 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by vztrt

You need to have a stable market at home before you export.
.

Local car sales will set another all time record this year...so your point was/is?

johnydep · 10-12-2013, 01:37 PM

Having recently ordered a new VF Commodore, and watching the media have a field day with talk of Holden closing, I have become concerned about the quality of the vehicle that I will receive. So I asked Holden Customer Assistance -

Quote:

Dear John,

We write in reference to your most recent email correspondence received at Holden Customer Assistance.

Please be advised, the reports in the media as of late regarding the future of Holden's manufacturing is media speculation, on which we are unable to comment.

Holden set out a 10-year manufacturing plan that was agreed with the Australian Government in 2012, based on the economic and market conditions at that time. That plan would see Holden invest a billion dollars in Australia and secure production of two all-new global vehicles out to 2022.

Holden is constantly working closely with the Australian and State Governments to ensure the viability of the industry in the face of the historically significant economic challenges facing the country at the moment. Holden has recently made its submission to the Productivity Commission and our discussions with the Government are ongoing.

Should you wish to discuss matter further, you can contact us directly on 1800 03 349, quoting the above mentioned reference number.

Yours sincerely,
Samantha ........
Customer Care Specialist

Trump · 10-12-2013, 01:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RedHotGT

What people seem to forget is that you are comparing a hugely different timeframe of when the Falcon/Commdore was sucessful, to today...

Let me take you back 15 years ago - when the Falcon and Commdore were selling quite well. I've selected two cars to compare to paint you a very blatantly obvious picture....
1998 Ford AU Forte Petrol Sedan - RRP $29,990
1998 BMW E46 328i Petrol Sedan - RRP $86,800
There is a $56k difference between the two cars... or roughly 3 times the price...
Also consider what your wage was in 1998, what your mortgage was in 1998 etc...
NOW - Fast forward to today:
2013 Ford FGII XT Petrol Sedan - RRP $37,235
2013 BMW 328i Petrol Sedan - RRP $68,900
Now there is only $30k difference in it, or roughly less than HALF the price difference... So the Beemer is now $20k cheaper (20% cheaper), and is JAM packed with stuff (8spd Auto, way better fuel economy, etc etc etc) and the Falcon has INCREASED in price by $9k (25% more expensive)...

Ok - so it's numbers and jargon etc... I know I know... but now think about it properly... The Falcon costs more (though I still reckon it's cheap for what you get), the BMW costs less (and is FULL of good bits), and the gap between the two is less than it has EVER been before...

So, more people are taking the plunge, borrowing more, and buying European built cars. And that is just ONE example, I'm sure if you compared the relative Benz, Audi, VW, you'd see a similar trend... and I haven't even touched on the Jap cars that are better now than they've ever been in the past as well...

So to answer the OP - when did the Falcon/Commodore lose it all?? Well they didn't really... Everyone else just caught up........

The two cars you mention aren't an example of comparing apples with apples. For one, the 3 series isn't comparable in size to the Falcon. Two, the 3-series prices aren't indicative of the actual worth of the car (read as price in Europe and the US, most of that $86k and todays $68k are the Australia Tax and LCT).

You also don't take into account inflation, that numeric $9k increase is lower than CPI for the period mentioned. So in effect, its actual price has fallen slightly.

Anyway, how and where the Commodore and Falcon lost has been detailed by others in the thread.
In a nutshell:

- Ford rested on its laurels when it came to Falcon, it didn't change it in a timely manner to take advantage of the spreading affluenza in Australia and it didn't do it any favours with the **** poor dealer network.

- Holden did likewise, they have sort of combated that with the tech laden VF, but said affluenza has tarred Falcons and Commodores with the same bogan brush.

- The parent companies don't actually give a stuff about the Australian market considering its size.

Edit: Here is an interesting article I just read comparing labour costs in Germany and the US, using production numbers:

http://www.forbes.com/sites/frederic...twice-as-much/

vztrt · 10-12-2013, 01:50 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Spammy

Local car sales will set another all time record this year...so your point was/is?

I was talking about locally built cars. If you can't be stable in your own backyard then your kidding yourself exporting when that can be extremely volatile.

HULK_I6T · 10-12-2013, 02:17 PM

The smaller cars have grown up substantially and are "enough" for a typical family.

The falcon has 195kw and almost 400nm, is that really needed to haul around an average family or a sales rep?

I dont blame businesses for buying a Camry/Mazda 3, they do the job for $10k less.

cro142 · 10-12-2013, 02:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

Absolutely, that's why hero cars exist- to build the brand. Brand image is everything and having one of the most legendary nameplates on earth in your stable (pun intended) is something every manufacturer wants. It gets people interested in the brand.

Yep, the Mustang is all about brand building, Hero cars and the like.

As far as the actual car goes, most Mustangs since about 1968 have been absolute dogs, and I doubt the next one will be any different. The Mustangs of '64 to '68 were brilliant in their time, and Ford has been trading off that reputation ever since.

For the last 40 years, the US car industry has been asleep while the Asians lifted the auto game, and they still have not woken up. They just went broke through lack of action to keep up. Don't try and tell me a US designed Mustang will be much past 1980's standards of sophistication and development. The US industry just does not seem to "get it", and remain mired in the old ways.

The Australians that developed the Falcon to what it is today be very proud of their achievements, and even more so because they managed to do it in spite of a brain-dead US parent company.

Don't get me wrong, I absolutely love the way that my XR6T drives, but I'm fed up with corporate Ford - warranty, service, quality, forward thinking.

DanielXR8 · 10-12-2013, 09:56 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Adrenaline

I wasn't talking about sales, just enthusiasm for the brand. If it gets people back into Ford showrooms, it's done its job.

True enough.

Then the dealers can do their job of getting them back out again.

The Falcon might be gone, but the dealers and the attitudes that put Falcon second to Holden all these years are still there.

stevz · 10-12-2013, 10:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

True enough.

Then the dealers can do their job of getting them back out again.

The Falcon might be gone, but the dealers and the attitudes that put Falcon second to Holden all these years are still there.

Which is why I laugh when people suggest that ending manufacture in Australia will be the end of all Ford's problems.

HULK_I6T · 10-12-2013, 10:41 PM

As we know the falcon is on its way out?

Do ford owe it to is to give us one last

Fairmont ghia? Fairmont? Futura? Xr8 and GT? Maybe even a fairlane or a wagon?

DoreSlamR · 10-12-2013, 11:57 PM

They lost it when cheaper imports with more technology and gadgets hit the showrooms.

Oh and the average australian car buyer is a moron.

Only rational reasoning for people buying mobile death traps filled with asbestos, Chery anyone?

Windsor220 · 11-12-2013, 12:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

Only rational reasoning for people buying mobile death traps filled with asbestos, Chery anyone?

Do many people buy chinese cars like Chery and Great Wall? Its a serious question. You never see many around and I wouldn't imagine the sales numbers are that high.

DoreSlamR · 11-12-2013, 01:11 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Windsor220

Do many people buy chinese cars like Chery and Great Wall? Its a serious question. You never see many around and I wouldn't imagine the sales numbers are that high.

Not saying Chinese cars are outselling the Aussie cars.

Just pointing out that people are buying absolute garbage, because it's cheap.

b0son · 11-12-2013, 01:30 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by DoreSlamR

Just pointing out that people are buying absolute garbage, because it's cheap.

Those people wouldn't have much impact, they'd likely be unwilling to pay the price for a new falcadore anyway.

outback_ute · 11-12-2013, 01:39 AM

Lots of good points here. Loud_Noises your first two points re Falcon vs BMW and inflation may be correct but they don't alter the fundamentals - many people are now buying smaller prestige Euros over Falcon/Commodore, and all car prices have stagnated or decreased with the currency change.

I wouldn't be surprised that a key/final tipping point was the GFC where with all the uncertainty that people asked themselves do I really need a big car when I can get a Mazda 3 (etc) with all the gear, useful space, decent performance, better fuel economy for a whole lot less $$$ (the real difference in cost of ownership).

Another point that hasn't been raised yet is the poor resale value of the Falcon & Commodore because they are so heavily fleet-biased, along with the lesser image this can bring. Eg why on earth did Ford design a special ugly edition of the FG Falcon to sell to fleets?

outback_ute · 11-12-2013, 01:39 AM

Lots of good points here. Loud_Noises your first two points re Falcon vs BMW and inflation may be correct but they don't alter the fundamentals - many people are now buying smaller prestige Euros over Falcon/Commodore, and all car prices have stagnated or decreased with the currency change.

I wouldn't be surprised that a key/final tipping point was the GFC where with all the uncertainty that people asked themselves do I really need a big car when I can get a Mazda 3 (etc) with all the gear, useful space, decent performance, better fuel economy for a whole lot less $$$ (the real difference in cost of ownership).

Another point that hasn't been raised yet is the poor resale value of the Falcon & Commodore because they are so heavily fleet-biased, along with the lesser image this can bring. Eg why on earth did Ford design a special ugly edition of the FG Falcon to sell to fleets?

basteve · 11-12-2013, 11:15 AM

The USA siphoned it all.

**ebxr8240** · 11-12-2013, 03:50 PM

The Car paper or plan years ago to drop tariffs is half the problem , I guess the poverty PAC cars can stay 5% but engine capacity over 2.5 or 3 litre could be 15% or so to protect local market . Much the same as other countries do. Thailand, Japan etc. it's all too late the gov over the years have sitting on their hands !! All of them. New modern designs are needed ! It's obvious smaller SUVs or crossover vehicles are popular . Yes the Ford showrooms ! Grab some cameras and Ford CEO dress him in bogan style clothes and see how he's treated ! Ala undercover boss . The Ford dealer in Pennant Hills is where I would start !