Towing a Caravan - Mechanical strain etc

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by chevypower

10-15% of your total gross trailer weight should be on the ball with a regular hitch.

This is just not true. You don't need 10-15% to be safe.
Why does the handbook in my car say 5-10% if it needs 10-15% to be safe.
Why does VW only require 5%.
Maybe if you want to tow at 130-160km/h you need to be at 10-15%. But seriously, you can't do that speed anywhere in Australia.
Thousand of people all over the world tow safely at 5%-10%.
I'm not agreeing with Fed on the negative ball weight and would never recommend that either. But this myth of 10-15% is just garbage.

[.:4:.]

Negative ball weight is bad. Ive left my work car with a box trailer with the boys before to do a tip run and scrap metal run and a few times they thought they were doing me a favour by putting the light rubbish up front and the heavy metal in the back. They meant well, logic being its easier to unload heavy stuff if its in the back, but at 80 on the freeway, hit a bump and the trailer wants to tell the rear end of the car what to do. I never came unstuck, but you can deffinately feel the rear end of the car start to 'float' i guess thats how to describe it. I would much rather tow with too much down weight then not enough. Yes technically that takes weight off the front axle of the car and greatly effects braking as the front wheels do the majority of braking.
But for my personal use i bought a car that suits the boat i was intending to tow, part of the reason i bought it. 1600kg boat on trailer, falcon. Wouldn't want to tow anything heavier with it, but the boat came before the car.

[MercuryT]

I'm honest about the fact I've got no idea about towing and this low ball weight (85kg) but decent 2200kg (braked) capacity has me bemused completely.

Just didn't expect such spirited debate at complete opposite ends of the spectrum!!

Everyone is convincing me too.......haha

[prydey]

Originally Posted by .:4:.

. Yes technically that takes weight off the front axle of the car and greatly effects braking as the front wheels do the majority of braking.

While this is true, very few towing accidents are caused by understeer. Most would be the opposite.

[Fed]

I should have added the negative ball weight was extremely dangerous above 80 KPH going downhill.
I sort of learned to drive around that but when I locked the rear wheels pulling up hard in the wet I once half jack knifed due to the road camber and that was enough for me to fix it.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by prydey

While this is true, very few towing accidents are caused by understeer. Most would be the opposite.

Yeah, but i thought i would throw that in for clarity. Its the trailer wanting to overtake the car, thats when you have issues. And also silly things, we had a bloke at work rear end someone in a loaded ute with a loaded trailer because he was driving like a normal car. Normal cars stop better then something that weighs a lot more then it normally does.

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Chapter Four

This is just not true. You don't need 10-15% to be safe.
Why does the handbook in my car say 5-10% if it needs 10-15% to be safe.
Why does VW only require 5%.
Maybe if you want to tow at 130-160km/h you need to be at 10-15%. But seriously, you can't do that speed anywhere in Australia.
Thousand of people all over the world tow safely at 5%-10%.
I'm not agreeing with Fed on the negative ball weight and would never recommend that either. But this myth of 10-15% is just garbage.

I don’t know why the people wrote car owners manuals a certain way, but if 10-15% is safer at high speeds, don’t you think it would be safer at lower speeds too? Come on man, it’s just common sense. Laws of physics don’t change depending on the country you’re in either.

https://www.trailersoftheeastcoast.c...fe-hitch--1739

https://www.weigh-safe.com/towing-sa...t-mrtruck-com/

https://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/...or-safe-towing

https://www.ramtrucks.com/BodyBuilde...1D%2BFDNq7c%0A

https://www.etrailer.com/faq-how-to-...ue-weight.aspx

https://rvshare.com/blog/trailer-ton...-calculate-it/

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...gue-weight.htm

Do you need more references, or are you sticking with the owners manual of your VW? 😂

[prydey]

Originally Posted by chevypower

I don’t know why the people wrote car owners manuals a certain way, but if 10-15% is safer at high speeds, don’t you think it would be safer at lower speeds too? Come on man, it’s just common sense. Laws of physics don’t change depending on the country you’re in either.

https://www.trailersoftheeastcoast.c...fe-hitch--1739

https://www.weigh-safe.com/towing-sa...t-mrtruck-com/

https://www.gmc.com/gmc-life/trucks/...or-safe-towing

https://www.ramtrucks.com/BodyBuilde...1D%2BFDNq7c%0A

https://www.etrailer.com/faq-how-to-...ue-weight.aspx

https://rvshare.com/blog/trailer-ton...-calculate-it/

https://auto.howstuffworks.com/auto-...gue-weight.htm

Do you need more references, or are you sticking with the owners manual of your VW? 😂

It's not that black and white. It is possible to safely tow with less than 10% ball weight. Europeans do it every day. The caveat is the trailers they tow were designed that way and also feature anti sway technology. I believe they also restrict towing speeds.

I've seen caravans that have a MAX ball weight stipulated on the compliance plate, and less than 10% of the ATM. Some around 5%.

So it can be done if that's how it was designed. It's just not very common in Australia or USA.

That's not suggesting you can tow any trailer with a reduced ball weight though.

Manufacturer ratings are to protect the car integrity. Nothing more. They don't care what you tow as long as you stay within the parameters they set. They aren't necessarily saying it's safe to tow a caravan with 5% ball weight. They are just providing maximum specs for the equipment. Trailers come in all shapes and sizes and configurations.

[MercuryT]

You towing gurus.

Are boats easier to tow at low ball weight than a Caravan or something? (I know wind etc will affect a van more as shape)

I rang the previous owner today and he said his boat never the slightest problem at 2 tonne braked at 80kph max to be safe, and didn't know anything about tow ball weight of what boat needed etc.

[Chapter Four]

Chevypower, You're quoting US sites, which have to cater for states that allowing towing at 130kmh, hence the higher ball loads.

Sorry but safe is safe. Something is safe or it's not.
Towing at 5% ball load @90kmh is just as safe as towing at 15% ball load at 90kmh. And the studies have shown that to be true. Your good at googling, look it up.
The car manufacturers wrote those manuals because its safe to to tow 2300kg with a ball load of 115kg, that's why, or do you think they just made that up?
And no, i don't own a VW.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by MercuryT

You towing gurus.

Are boats easier to tow at low ball weight than a Caravan or something? (I know wind etc will affect a van more as shape)

I rang the previous owner today and he said his boat never the slightest problem at 2 tonne braked at 80kph max to be safe, and didn't know anything about tow ball weight of what boat needed etc.

I would say he never bothered looking up the specs of the car like you have done. Credit to you for doing that by the way.

As mentioned, the saying 'just because you can doesn't mean you should' probably applies here. It may be worth your while getting the tow bar mounts etc checked by an engineer just to be sure the previous owner hasn't caused any damage. No harm in being cautious.

As mentioned as well, the low rating could be for a number of reasons. Tyre rating, wheel rating, axle limits, suspension, tow bar mounting method.... The list goes on.

[GCRXR6]

Hahaha..I was thinking of this very advert, while reading this discussion. You beat me to it. Well posted.

Rephrase.."Don't talk to me about towing..I know towing."

[MercuryT]

Originally Posted by GCRXR6

Hahaha..I was thinking of this very advert, while reading this discussion. You beat me to it. Well posted.

Rephrase.."Don't talk to me about towing..I know towing."

I remember when young Dad said been in boats for years.

Took a small boat out and when returning it was time to park it etc.

Apparently Dad forgot boats don't have brakes so came in a bit hot and it was an ugly (but extremely funny, not dangerous) end to a great day on the water!!

[chevypower]

Originally Posted by Chapter Four

Chevypower, You're quoting US sites, which have to cater for states that allowing towing at 130kmh, hence the higher ball loads.

Sorry but safe is safe. Something is safe or it's not.
Towing at 5% ball load @90kmh is just as safe as towing at 15% ball load at 90kmh. And the studies have shown that to be true. Your good at googling, look it up.
The car manufacturers wrote those manuals because its safe to to tow 2300kg with a ball load of 115kg, that's why, or do you think they just made that up?
And no, i don't own a VW.

It’s not really that 5% is safer in Australia, it’s just that payload is the limiting factor, so how do you inflate the towing capacity? By lowering the recommended percentage. That kind of happened with the older style Ram 1500 in the US too (when they first went to coils). They would say you could pull 9,000 lbs. but if you spec’d out a crew cab EcoDiesel fully loaded, you would only have 800 lbs of payload. Fill it with fuel and put four adults inside, and most of that available payload is gone. Suddenly you really shouldn’t be towing 9,000 lbs anymore. The manufacturers know this, but somehow the marketing guys get away with promoting such figures.

[.:4:.]

Originally Posted by MercuryT

I remember when young Dad said been in boats for years.

Took a small boat out and when returning it was time to park it etc.

Apparently Dad forgot boats don't have brakes so came in a bit hot and it was an ugly (but extremely funny, not dangerous) end to a great day on the water!!

How hot is a bit hot? Slow as in sort of idle speeds, reverse is the brakes. Anything above that or say 5 knots or above, reverse can potentially ruin your day and outdrive.
A 2 tonne boat would have to be on a dual axle trailer. Im not sure how that would affect down weight. Never towed a tandem.
I have towed slightly over 2t a few times before in diesel utes rated to more then 2t, and the only difference towing the 'dead' weight compared to towing my boat behind my car, which is still effectively still weight, is the boat trailer is wider then the car and longer then any other trailer i have towed. Towing a cherry picker at 1950kgs, the weight doesnt change. Towing a machine trailer with a scissor lift at +/- 2050kgs the weight doesnt change. Towing a boat with an empty tank then dumping 140L of fuel in, that sort of changes the feel a bit. My boat fuelled up is around the 1600kg mark. And to quantify that estimation, 5.3m fibreglass hull, 350kg trailer (or so the compliance plate says), iron block 4.3L v6 that the book says weighs 465kgs dry. Chuck an outdrive on it and the rest like interior etc. But, this is a rant about braked trailers, not going from an empty box trailer with no brakes to a loaded box trailer. Most cars have no issue with a loaded trailer with no brakes as trailer brakes are required over a certain weight, and unless its a monster box trailer, it wont have/need brakes as the car is capable of doing the stopping unassisted. Unless its a falcon. You can have the best trailer brakes in existance and the front rotors will warp anyways. But with a falcon, they all do that.

[MercuryT]

I'm about to watch the footy but no it was just a low speed crash into barriers etc......no harm at all just having a laugh at it's easy to think you know but yet not really! (was a tiny boat)

[Crazy Dazz]

What about a super lightweight caravan like this:
Lightweight Caravan - needs work

[dunga]

Originally Posted by Crazy Dazz

What about a super lightweight caravan like this:
Lightweight Caravan - needs work

I think that van is the result of what we have been talking about .

[Tassie f100]

Looks like what happens when people try to tow that size with a Ranger size car rather than a proper tow vehicle

[dunga]

Interesting the add says damage type IMPACT i wonder what it got hit with .

[Tassie f100]

Originally Posted by dunga

Interesting the add says damage type IMPACT i wonder what it got hit with .

The road???

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Not directly related to this thread, but I thought I'd share this as an example of what can go wrong with towing heavy loads:

[Chapter Four]

^ You can't fix stupid.
This isn't caused by towing a heavy load.
It's caused by a dumb person doing a dumb thing.
Boat wasn't even tied down. They were doing 98kmh before he overtook, how fast was he going when he lost it.
Just plain stupid.

[Vesper Martini]

Dash cam has the car doing 97kph at the start so off this I'm thinking why overtake 2 cars?

Could be the leading car slowed to 80 in the bends and was getting frustrating but you just have to suck it up

not sure what speed he got to maybe 120 its should still have kept straight, but I did notice how wide he was maybe turned in a bit hard? you have to keep steady movements.

no rear straps holding the boat on either?

[FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0]

Originally Posted by Chapter Four

^ You can't fix stupid.
This isn't caused by towing a heavy load.
It's caused by a dumb person doing a dumb thing.
Boat wasn't even tied down. They were doing 98kmh before he overtook, how fast was he going when he lost it.
Just plain stupid.

Just for clarity sake, I didn't say it was caused by towing a heavy load, just that this is what can happen when towing a heavy load.

I'm sure there were many other causes, as has been highlighted.

It is hard to tell from the vision, but the wheels of the trailer get very close to the edge of the bitumen too, possibly going over. That may have also been a contributing factor.

[Blue Dog]

That bloke came undone due to trailer sway.
You can see it clearly in the video.

https://www.driverknowledgetests.com...o-you-stop-it/

[Chapter Four]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Just for clarity sake, I didn't say it was caused by towing a heavy load, just that this is what can happen when towing a heavy load.

I'm sure there were many other causes, as has been highlighted.

It is hard to tell from the vision, but the wheels of the trailer get very close to the edge of the bitumen too, possibly going over. That may have also been a contributing factor.

Sorry, wasn't meant to be a criticism of you or your post.
Some people see these incidents and come to the conclusion that towing heavy loads isn't safe.
It's not the load that's unsafe, it's the driver. I've seen people do exactly the same with box trailers because they were loaded incorrectly and then driven stupidly.

[Vesper Martini]

Originally Posted by Blue Dog

That bloke came undone due to trailer sway.
You can see it clearly in the video.

https://www.driverknowledgetests.com...o-you-stop-it/

Yes, which is relative to the above conversation.

in my experience boats not normally associated with this as the axles are normally towards the rear. this boat didn't even have a whopping big outboard hanging off the back.

I have a quick look at my boat which would be similar dimensions, maybe a bit larger. that trailer looks too small note where the rear rollers overhang way back from the rear frame.. (mine has skids which stop where the trailer ends)

still though if he just did 97-98 kph it wouldn't have happened

[Pis-ton broke]

Originally Posted by FoxtrotGolfXray 5.0

Not directly related to this thread, but I thought I'd share this as an example of what can go wrong with towing heavy loads:

i hope they threw the book at him. another part of the "how to tow equation" is to have some basic common sense. its a good thing no one was killed, if he was towing horses or cattle its possible dead animals. ime , float towers show a lot of care when towing.

[Fed]

I've had trailer sways many times and one thing I found was that using intuitive corrections seems to have no effect and if anything it seems to make the swaying worse.

Has anyone else experienced this?