Engine lineages – interesting history

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 12:24 PM

one of my interests is finding out the history of engines (reading articles or watching documenteries) and how they related to cars that we may have driven or heard about. These examples are from decades ago but you may know some current ones. Probably anyone under 40 years old wont give a rats about this stuff but I will take a chance. I will have my flame suit on if you hate this stuff…..

1. the (NAZI funded) Daimer Benz, supercharger development of the Silver arrows grand prix cars and Mercedes road cars, ( germany was not allowed to develop aircraft after WW1) morphed into the DB605 engine which powered the Messerschmitt BF109

2. the Ford Anglia(1000cc) 4 cylinder KENT engine morphed into the COSWORTH DFV V8 (most successful F1 engine in history)

3. remember the Merc 300 SLR Gullwing (worlds first supercar), well that had a 3.0 litre slant 6. do you, or anyone you know have a 60’s Valiant? Take a good look at the Slant 6 motor, because it was designed by the same guy as the SLR 300. Rudolf Uhlenhaut. He was commissioned by Chrysler in the late 50’s for a while and he obviously likes slant 6’s..

4. the VN 3800 (arch enemy of the EA!). that motor was morphed from a 215CI Fireball V8 from 1961. that was an alloy engine originally and if you research Jack brabhams 1966 F1 world championship car, he used the block of one of those Fireball V8’s to base his engine on which we called the REPCO-BRABHAM. GM flogged that motor off to Rover for there use and it also ended up as the 4.4 lite engine in australia’s Leyland P76. how about that for a history?

If anybody proves me wrong in this stuff then Flame on.
do you know any engine design history stories yourself?

Iggypoppin' · 13-02-2009, 12:29 PM

an interesting read mate no flames at all. Looks like you are just an enthusiast sharing his knowledge! Interesting to read about the VN engine origins too.

LOCO XP · 13-02-2009, 01:10 PM

Interesting read, but wasn't the Holden V6 based on the Buick V6 from the 60's? Not sure but thats what I've always thought. Anyway that's what a friend of a friend told me back in school.... A couple more interesting developments would be the ill-fated Chrysler 4cyl Hemi (based on a 245 Hemi) and Starfire motors (which are often stripped for their conrods to put into Holden 6's), and also the Triumph V8's fitted to Stags etc. I don't really know much about these but my scrappy knowledge seems to think these all evolved from other engines, some bigger, some smaller.

Anyway, thread certainly got me thinking, might need to research and look further into some of these. Like the one about the Merc (dream car) and the Valiant engines.

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 01:20 PM

the hemi 245 was developed by the yanks (request by chrysler aust) to beat the monaro. they felt the 225 wasnt grunty enough, but the yanks had heaps of problems with the long block initially. probably why they stuck with the 225 for 2 decades....

the 3800 was borne of the 215 fireball V8. i have researched that and there is no doubt at all about that.

i only read of the slant 6/SLR design link in last 3 months or so. sometimes the back page of wheels has historical articles that i find out info from.

henry 351 · 13-02-2009, 01:43 PM

That Daimler Benz story is quite a " morph", from a straight 8 5.6 litre 646hp, to a 60 degree 36 litre V12 with 1550hp! Plus, the V12 had methanol/water injection to assist quick take offs. Once airborne, some even had nitrous...

The ironic thing about the BF 109 was that pre-war prototype had a Rolls Royce engine. After the war,the Spanish airforce used them until 1954. Again, the irony was that they had been retrofitted with Rolls Merlin engines.

On the local front, I believe the 308 Holden had been factory engineered to go to 350cid, but Holden never went through with it. From memory, this came to light when the HSV taxi yellow GTS-R's came out years ago.

A decision most Ford racing drivers in the 70's and 80's would appreciate.

Powdered Toast Man · 13-02-2009, 01:45 PM

Loco, I was lead to believe the Holden 3.8 V6 was a Buick engine. But thats not to say that the Buick V6 wasn't derived from somewhere else.

I believe the 4.4L V8 in the Landrover Disco and Rangy was of Buick origins as well, which makes sense if it was sold to Rover like jphanna mentioned. I should note I mean before Ford and then BMW owned Land Rover as they used an increased capacity version of the Jag 4.2 and then the BMW 4.4.

LOCO XP · 13-02-2009, 01:55 PM

From a brief wikipedia browse, the most reliable source of info in the world lol.

The Buick V6, initially marketed as Fireball at its introduction in 1962, is a large V6 engine used by General Motors. The block is made of cast iron and all use two-valve-per-cylinder iron heads, actuated by pushrods....

The LN3 was replaced by the 3.8 L (3791 cc, 231 cu in)[3] L27 in 1991-1992 and produced 170 horsepower (130 kW) from 1992 onward, this engine was referred to as the Series I 3800. In Australia, the LN3 was also replaced by the L27 by Holden who used the engine in their series 2 (1991) VN Commodore range. However, the Australian L27 retained the LN3's one piece upper intake and lower plenum. Power was still boosted to 127 kW (170 hp) for the Holden L27. The L36 made its debut in 1995.

Applications:

Buick LeSabre
Buick Park Avenue
Buick Regal
Holden Commodore (VNII, VP, VR)
Holden Statesman (VQ, VR)
Pontiac Bonneville
Pontiac Trans Sport
Oldsmobile Eighty-Eight
Oldsmobile Ninety-Eight
Oldsmobile Toronado
Oldsmobile Toronado Trofeo
Oldsmobile Silhouette

LOCO XP · 13-02-2009, 01:57 PM

..... but to continue..... the origins of the Buick V6

Fireball V6
The first engine in this family was introduced in 1961 with Buick's 198 cu in (3.2 L) engine, the first V6 in an American car. Because it was derived from Buick's 215 cu in (3.5 L) aluminum V8, it has a 90° bank between cylinders and an odd-fire firing pattern that include the two 'phantom' cylinders from the V8 pattern.

eb2fairmont · 13-02-2009, 02:17 PM

Excellent work LOCO.

The Mercedes SL motor was only put on an angle to allow for the low bonnet line. The engine came direct for the the 300 cars, where it was mounted upright.

The 300Sl motor was also the first use of mechanical fuel injection. The 300 motor was originally Carb.

Oh here's one for you...the Falcon 6 shares the same bore spacing as the 1962 XK, and the spacing between the sills on the Falcon is the same as the 1966 XR.

**ebxr8240** · 13-02-2009, 02:17 PM

The triumph V8 was two 4 cylinder engines cast as v8..

The motor before the Chrysler slant was a side valve 6 and stood
too high to fit.. So they laid it over.. It has similar bottom end features as the side valve with new ohv top end..

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 02:17 PM

[QUOTE=henry 351]That Daimler Benz story is quite a " morph", from a straight 8 5.6 litre 646hp, to a 60 degree 36 litre V12 with 1550hp! Plus, the V12 had methanol/water injection to assist quick take offs. Once airborne, some even had nitrous...

the info i seen in a documentary claims the Germans were not allowed to develop aircraft during the 20's, so they (NAZI) funded Grand prix racing to develop the Supercharger technology for adaption to the aircraft. The DB605 stands for Daimler Benz.

also the 1957 507 coupe BMW (commercial failure) had a 3.2 pushrod V8. in a wheels or motor magazine in 80's or 90's, claimed that the basis of the Buick fireball V8 COULD have been based on the BMW motor which was disgarded by BMW. i have not been able to confirm this in any BMW or Buick site for years, but the bore/stroke and capacities are similar. This is stuff that i find most interesting! who would think the 3800V6 would have such a intestesting history.

the 245 was developed by the Yanks, but the 265 was pushed and developed by the aussies, in their bid for more grunt (against the yanks advice).

**ebxr8240** · 13-02-2009, 02:32 PM

The old 18rg Toyota engine was very similar to Austins 1800 B series engine..
The Toyota 1600 4AGE is a direct copy off the Lotus Ford twin cam engine ...
Mazda rotory where designed from NSU a German, Felix ****el designed in 50's..

last fairlane · 13-02-2009, 02:34 PM

Hi all great thread
A couple of things I read about in the 60s was the Repco Brabham 5000 was made from two Peugot 4 cylinder motors welded to gether then stroked and bored and the other thing was the Buick alloy V8 that they developed but couldnt keep coll so the sold it to the Poms at Rover who turned it into a 3.5 Litre and the Aussies turned it into a 4.4 Litre for the P76 I had one of those in the 70s it was an Executive the equivelent of a Fairmont V8 bucket seats air con and power steer also as far as I know that motor was the basis for the Truimph Stag motor you can correct me on that bit if you like
and like XB says Datsuns had a direct copy of an Austin A 40 motor which was the forerunner of the 1800/1100/ and the Mini and MGBs
thanks John

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 02:39 PM

did you mean 3000cc. that was limit in 60's. i havnt come accross the Peugot story but i will dig very deep to see if it surfaces in any Jack brabham links. so far the buick block story ha appeared many times over the years describing his home made effort, but the peugot story is very interesting indeed....

**ebxr8240** · 13-02-2009, 02:50 PM

The Triumph Stag designed from two Triumph Dolomite Sprint OHC motors..
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Triumph_Stag

Bushbasher · 13-02-2009, 03:10 PM

Didn't the Repco-Brabham spawn the holden 253 V8 which then grew into the 308?

Bushbasher

Rob · 13-02-2009, 03:16 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by jphanna

1. the (NAZI funded) Daimer Benz, supercharger development of the Silver arrows grand prix cars and Mercedes road cars, ( germany was not allowed to develop aircraft after WW1) morphed into the DB605 engine which powered the Messerschmitt BF109

Good thread!

The DB60x series owed some development to the earlier race engines, but they were developed independently in the pre-war era. The DB600 was an inverted V12, rather than a straight 8.

The BF109 was designed for the Junkers Jumo, but there was a licence agreement for the RR Kestrel, which was also tested in the 109. The DB601 was chosen to replace the Jumo in the 109C/Ds.

Quote:

Originally Posted by henry 351

.

On the local front, I believe the 308 Holden had been factory engineered to go to 350cid, but Holden never went through with it. From memory, this came to light when the HSV taxi yellow GTS-R's came out years ago.

Wasn't the holden V8 originally designed as the 253?

Harrop actually developed the stroker 350 - whether the V8 was designed to accomodate larger displacement or not, I'm not sure.

Iggypoppin' · 13-02-2009, 03:21 PM

think your right there bush basher they share the same block don't they?

eb2fairmont · 13-02-2009, 04:15 PM

No.

The repco brabham was derived form the BOP (Buick, Oldsmobile Pontiac) 90 degree all alloy v8. That motor wasn't a huge success, but they did drop two cylinders off it and cast it in iron to creat the 90 degree 3800 series v6 motors.

Rover brought the tooling and morphed it into the rover 3.5. Repco (under Phil Irving) brought BOP blocks for 14 pounds, resleeved the blocks and put on thier won cylinder heads to create the repco brabham motors.

The link to the 253 comes through formula 5000. Here holden 253 blocks were rebored and stroked to achive 5 litres capacity, as the wall thickness was better.

Holden launched the 253 first (as an economy minded motor) with the 308 replacing the chev 307. The Holden motor (as reported by Fred James the chief engineer) was always designed to go to 350 Cu In, but development on that aspect stopped after the first fuel crisis. Holden had also aimed to put injection on it back in the mid-70's, but ran into the recession and falling market share.

Now onto the stag. The dolly sprint motor was the basis for this engine. But Triumph decided that all the dolly components would work behind a motor with double the output. They also had impossibly long cam chains as it was ohc.

Now I bring this up because the dolly motor was sold to saab and used in the 900. SAAB later put their own design twin cam head on it.

And now the Austin B series......Datsun brought the licence to it and put it in the 1200 and 120Y. The Toyota 4F? and 5F motors in the 70's to early 80's corollas shared similarities.

Sorta like the landcruisers motor, which was based on a chev wartime truck engine until the update 80 series landcruiser.

**ebxr8240** · 13-02-2009, 04:56 PM

The Nissan 1200 engine is closer to A series or Fords Kent engine..
Its also amazing how close the Nissan L18 engine is to Fords SOHC 2 Ltr...

BlackLS · 13-02-2009, 05:05 PM

Ford Focus 2.0L Duratec is used in the Caterham 7; faster around the Top Gear track than the Veyron.

The W16 engine in the Veyron, is based off VW's VR6 engine, originally released in 1991 for the Passat.

Sprint XR8 · 13-02-2009, 06:40 PM

The 161ci Vauxhall six introduced in 1961 is very similar to the Holden red six introduced in 1963. In 1965 Vauxhall increased the motor to 202ci, the Holden 202 from 1971 shares an identical bore and stroke 3.625in x 3.25in.

Nikked · 13-02-2009, 07:12 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Rob

Wasn't the holden V8 originally designed as the 253?

Harrop actually developed the stroker 350 - whether the V8 was designed to accomodate larger displacement or not, I'm not sure.

Yep, the 308 run along side it.

It was destroked to 304 by HDT in the 80's to come under the Group A class limit (5000cc).

The VS HSV GTS, senator and GTS-R came with 355ci (sill called a 5.7) strokers.

The GTS-R had the option of engine blueprinting.

last fairlane · 13-02-2009, 08:34 PM

Hi Thanks for that info about the dolly motors and the Stag and I can still recall reading about the Peugot link back then maybe there was more than one Brabham effort to make a racing engine:I also think from memory they were made in South Melbourne as part of GHH
OK how about the Triumph Vanguard 4 cylinder turning into the Fergie tractor power plant
thanks John

mik · 13-02-2009, 09:13 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by last fairlane

Hi all great thread
A couple of things I read about in the 60s was the Repco Brabham 5000 was made from two Peugot 4 cylinder motors welded to gether then stroked and bored and the other thing was the Buick alloy V8 that they developed but couldnt keep coll so the sold it to the Poms at Rover who turned it into a 3.5 Litre and the Aussies turned it into a 4.4 Litre for the P76 I had one of those in the 70s it was an Executive the equivelent of a Fairmont V8 bucket seats air con and power steer also as far as I know that motor was the basis for the Truimph Stag motor you can correct me on that bit if you like
and like XB says Datsuns had a direct copy of an Austin A 40 motor which was the forerunner of the 1800/1100/ and the Mini and MGBs
thanks John

yeah another reason to sell the v8 off to the poms is that it was too small to power the big tanks.

MethodX · 13-02-2009, 09:17 PM

That Oldsmobile/Buick Alloy angine.
Wasnt there a turbo version in 1961?
The Oldsmobile Jetfire.

Pretty handy for way back then

mad cow · 13-02-2009, 10:15 PM

the grey fergie engine was lifted from the standard make of cars. they even have the standard motor corporation tags on the motors if you know where to look. not many people will know that there was a joint program between harry ferguson and henry ford to produce the ford ferguson which like all of the joint ventures with old henery failed in fine fashion ferguson them merged with massey to produce the still running massey ferguson

**ebxr8240** · 13-02-2009, 10:32 PM

Yep the Ford equivalent was the Fordson Dexter...
Ford still make good tractors..

The Fergie engine was in the TR3 [TR5 & 6 had EFI 6's] with its wet sleeves, same as the Vanguard engine ..

jphanna · 13-02-2009, 10:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by BlackLS

Ford Focus 2.0L Duratec is used in the Caterham 7; faster around the Top Gear track than the Veyron.

The W16 engine in the Veyron, is based off VW's VR6 engine, originally released in 1991 for the Passat.

if this is that case that is freaky...

the reason why no ford V8 has been mentioned by me is because you guys would know everything there is to know about em...

RIPGMH · 13-02-2009, 10:40 PM

GM decided its facilities weren't up to the task and asked Mercury Marine to assemble its LT-5 Corvette engines. Adds to the boat anchor argument.