CAI & Snake Oil whats the diffrence

[jonbays]

Ok Jim may be a bit of a cantankerous old C&*( and Glenn has a personality and passion whch I like and respect but all this crap about CAI is really all about fleecing the naive wannabe racer for some cheap plastic who can't afford real power producing mods isn't it?

Even though he will sell his own version even Jim will admit it does SFA on a six with less than 140rwkw and I can tell you thats truse for me too.

All the big science BS hasn't impressed me much and I have tried a few times to see what I could do with it myself but pre throttle body power gains are in the snake oil basket for me.

The whole CAI business deserves some serious unmodifed scrutiny moderators.

Even if God told me it works and showed me his dyno sheet I would question it.

[Falchoon]

Home made jobs have found to give same power and cost a lot less. I spose it's like brand label clothing. It basically does the same job as the K-mart clothing but looks cooler and has more cred with your mates (and more importantly the chicks!).

[svo347]

Heres an idea...
run a pick up from just behind the radiator,only pulling in hot air dyno it.
move pick up into cool/cold air, dyno it.

[Aaron_EF8]

We all better head off to www.fordmods.com hey Walky.

[Barry_v]

guess that education was just to waste time while you reached the magic 26 eh dan.

[MickyB]

I don't know enough about induction dynamics to make a valid comment, I am hoping that ET's along with rwkw differences can be the judge. Maybe the alleged snake oil sales people could make a video of with and without said CAI, although alot of effort.

[stockstandard]

Originally Posted by svo347

Heres an idea...
run a pick up from just behind the radiator,only pulling in hot air dyno it.
move pick up into cool/cold air, dyno it.

Its hard to measure the effectiveness of CAI. Sitting/driving slow in traffic im sure they help. Flat out on the dyno with open bonnet or on the track and im not sure how much better off you are. Every saloon car I have seen runs an unshielded pod in the engine bay and look at how much power they get.

I have been very surprised at how little the air seems to be heated by engine components. Ill still aim to get the coolest air possible through the TB though.

[JC]

Jon - I assume you are talking about a particular CAI?

All falcons from EA onwards have had some sort of CAI. CAI = Cold Air Intake. The colder the air, the better, but in a family hack, the air temp probably doesn't make a huge difference - in an all out performance car, I guess it may be critical, but no tin a 4.0 I6. They are a very inefficient design for the capacity (There are 2L cars that make around 120kw, so a 4.0 litre could make 240 with the right designs).

What's my point? I don't know, but air temp is the least of our worries in a 4.0 I6.

[jonbays]

Originally Posted by JC

Jon - I assume you are talking about a particular CAI?

All falcons from EA onwards have had some sort of CAI. CAI = Cold Air Intake. The colder the air, the better, but in a family hack, the air temp probably doesn't make a huge difference - in an all out performance car, I guess it may be critical, but no tin a 4.0 I6. They are a very inefficient design for the capacity (There are 2L cars that make around 120kw, so a 4.0 litre could make 240 with the right designs).

What's my point? I don't know, but air temp is the least of our worries in a 4.0 I6.

I am interested to see who out there on the forums actually believe in some of the claims of the CAI, pod and filter and so on manufacturer & tuner claims. There are a few credible looking ones backed by dyno charts but do YOU belive it. I Don't. Big gains always sound like big BulSh#! to me

[tex]

I can't comment about I6's, but my 8 loses 3 -4 rwkw when I take the inlet pipe off of the standard (modified) airbox with K & N and my version of a CAI, and run the car on the dyno. (And that is with the botom end of the inlet duct facing the dyno fan)

Thats, repeatable, as we've done it several times since going to the same dyno.

That's NOT snakeoil, and only MY experience on my car. And makes no reference to brought versions of the same thing.

[stockstandard]

Problem is jonbays, is that if I sell the average person a mod and tell them its worth 10rwkw, when they drive the car they will probably feel 10rwkw if it is there or not.

I personally had trouble feeling the difference after my last cam change and when I put it on the dyno it had picked up 20rwkw. Some people claim to be able to feel a power difference between different brands of spark plugs.

Cant trust the bum-o-meter, and dyno's are net to worthless unless you do the testing youself.

[CAMS290]

The CAI on my Pursuit, is without doubt, the best value for money bolt on performance gain i have spent.
It makes those larger throttle bodys and helix spacers seem like a waste of money if you consider $$$$ spent to KW's gained.

BTW, i saw some before and after dyno sheets of a I6 vct that had a shambles of a cai on it, i think it picked up 10rwkw with a properly designed and tested one.

[MickyB]

Originally Posted by CAMS290

BTW, i saw some before and after dyno sheets of a I6 vct that had a shambles of a cai on it, i think it picked up 10rwkw with a properly designed and tested one.

Dangling the carrot.....I love it :Reverend:

[Racecraft]

Originally Posted by JC

What's my point? I don't know, but air temp is the least of our worries in a 4.0 I6.

That is the way I think of it too... Lets look at under bonnet temperatures for a minute and the multitude of factors.. Good radiator, coolant quality, external trans coolers, bent fins on the condensor, extractor design/distances/heat sheilding, grille/bumper design, timing, engine oil/wear and block temperatures..

Now there are a few variables that can affect under bonnet temperatures. Now look at what a CAI does? brings in ambient temp air instead of engine bay air... So the inlet charge is idealically drawn in at a similiar temp as that of the air from outside? So point to notice, we have no control of that temperature. Cold crisp morning vs lunchtime is bum-o-meter noticable. Now imho the box, sheilding etc that is designed to keep it the same temp as outside can surely be affected dramitically by the conditions it lives in. For example a car that has a engine bay temp of say 65 degress will make more power than one that cruises around at 80 degrees? So I'm saying ANY box or shield can work better from one car to another due to the variables. It then comes down to air filters, volume of air, flow dynamincs and heat soak. Heat soak shouldn't be a huge issue due to the velocity the air is passing thru at when you are up and running..


I have no idea on flow dynmaics and in turn what pressure zones are created with volume of air etc.. But with so many variables I'll stick to my $6 paper filter

[XTC 190]

Morning all,
As I have asked the question a few times on AFF and looked into the CAI quite a it I thought I would show you what I have done and how much it cost compared to forking out near on $550 to $600 for a SS induction kit.
In the picture you will see the 3 inch mild steel intake pipe HPC treated running down to the air box inside the air box I have a reusable SAAS pod filter which going by info is as good as the K&N then which you cant see is a new air entry I have from the bottom front left hand corner of the air box with piping running under the headlight through to the front driving light area in the bottom grill.
Once I have worked out the mechanics of it all I will have piping running from both driving light positions to the air box for max air I also havee the standard air scoop connected which provides some air as well.
All up with pod air filter and new air intake pipe and all the little bits and pieces to attach it all looking max $250 to $300.
But how is it with power gains, As I am restricted to the amount of money I can spend on the car this is the first performance mod done so the exhaust is standard etc etc and I am impressed with the changes I have noticed.
Before I couldnt even spin the wheels now whoa, I dont know if it is the torque which has jumped or just power overall. Throttle response is unbelievable now foot down and I am gone. I think I reckon a gain of anywhee from 10 to 15 kw maybe all up but dont quote me (not n expert).
All up at the end of the day when my wife comes to me after driving the car and says bloody hell the car goes faster now when you take off mind you she is indeed no car freak something must be working and working well.

[Craig]

Well done Falcon73 thats exactly what we are manufacturing right now with the Bluepower cold air box. IMO you really can't feel 5 RWKW gains when you mod a car, but you can feel 10 and up quite well.

When we developed our CAI for the BA XT 220KW 3 Valve (See Aussie Car Enhancements sponsor section for more info) we gained 23 RWKW. The car already had a Di Filippo Perf Exhaust which will help but the difference was quite staggering on the road once the computer relearned it self.

Giving these modern cars good cold clean air to breathe in then get the bad air out through performance exhausts makes for a good combination.

Our own XT started with 167RWKW + Exhaust = 180RWKW + CAI = 203RWKW + Flash Tune = 235RWKW

[XTC 190]

Thanks Craig@Ace its good to have a reply that encourages what I have done it makes the time I have spent around 1.5 months investigating worth it as in having others compliment the work. I agree back in the days of no computers the air intake was a small part but since getting the Falcon I am amazed at the power diffrence for such a what used to be minor enhancment.
At the moment I am working on the piping and once thats done time for the exhaust but may be a while, but looking at 2.5inch system with a sports muffler half way with a spiral hot dog type muffler at the back with extractors of course, I dont know how much is known about the spiral hot dog, my brother who is a mechanic and car enthuisist (ford of course) said that these systems give good gains with lower niose output he likened to a turbo, the turbo cars have the turbo which kind of quiet the noise out put than on a normal 6 the muffler actually spins the emmissions out dampening the noise but still produce good power . I will soon see how well the new intake works as I am going to willowbank on the 1st any ideas on a standard time for a n/a BA XT?

[BENT_8]

Falcon73 that setup looks very tidy indeed and im sure anyone with a 4.0 will be keen to give it a try but is it possible that the cold air part of the equation is really not as important.From what i can tell you have increased the engines ability to draw extra air by removing the plastic restrictor from the air box throat. I have seen an article in a magazine that shows how to remove the plastic restrictor in the plenum of a VN 3.8 crappadore.
Apparently that gave heaps of extra power without changing the air box which makes perfect sense. If you stick a piece of hose pipe in your mouth and suck air you will notice you can get the same lung full of air but it takes longer to get it, I think this is the same for an engine. A falcon six has about a 2.5-3" throttle body from memory yet the airbox will only allow it to suck about 2" which means all the cold air in the world wont increase your engines ability to breath more.
I believe we should really be looking for Improved Volume Induction as our intake mod of choice rather than Cold Air

[XTC 190]

I see what you are saying, thats why I have added the extra intake hole in the box, the standard scoop and hole into the box is small so I have added a 3 inch extra intake whole and the pipe leading out of the box is a 3 inch pipe so infact i have increased the amount of air going in,the way it acts now is more like ram air intake where at a stand still it can suck a bit more air due to the more intake area and once moving the air is being forced in.

[lunatic]

Well my old man added a cai to his magna wagon tj i think and hes says just standard driving hes getting an extra 1 klm to the liter and more torque
now hes about 60 some thing and records all his fuel usage better than the tax department ripping us off and he aint into go fast when hes pulling a A van???

[BENT_8]

You hit the nail on the head mate and it just proves that after market CAI's are just affordable mods to the average beginner without money for real performance upgrades.
I wonder how many CAI's would be sold if the salesman told people that their $400 CAI's are only effective with a set of $600 extractors which is pointless without a $700 2.5" system and cat all of which is useless without a head package which can only flow the same amount of air it did to begin with whilst hooked up to the original induction tube.
Not many i bet!
I think todays youngsters are hooked on what they see in shops and have little idea of how to design and fabricate mods for their own cars. What you have done,whilst not a new concept in terms of performance, is a great example of how to get the most amount of air into the engine without expensive brand name products,and at the same time, maintaining a clean (what the Ford factory should have done) original look.
Now u just need to add those extractors and system to get all that air out!
Well done mate 10/10

[XTC 190]

Thanks bent8 You too brought up a valid piont and hopefully it has shown the young fellas that taking the time to think of the upgrade and options can save some money and still have desired results

[KEV EB XR8]

Intresting read fellas, i have been bitten 1st up paying $300 for ss induction setup and couldnt say it was any good. after reading so much info on cai i decided to try and build something myself, 3 of them failed, but this forth attempt has great results, not dissimilar to "geckos" behind the headlight large box, i took it to the height of the bonnet to close on rubber, and back to the shock tower with the maf inside and all insulated. looks ugly as its only a prototype but volume of air aids all across the rev range.

[geckoGT]

The main thing to realise when talking cold air is it really does not work on the dyno, therfore it will not boost your ego through bragging rights. Where it does work is on the road (where it counts). I have seen a considerable increase in the performance of my car over my development time and some of that is definitely a result of my own cold air system.
My initial best quarter time with a unichip, induction pipe, pod filter, underdrives and helix block was 13.6 on a very cold winter night. By the way the bog standard time was 14.7.
My best so far with edit, CAI, underdrives and no helix block on a warmish night (TT of 25 degrees) was 13.195 (some question the ET but the initial run for the night when temp was higher and the engine was hot was 13.6). The beast does not get off the line any quicker but the mid to high rev power is streets ahead. Dyno power difference between the 2 times is 6rwkw, dynos tell very little. On road, the difference is it now spins the back wheels when you nail it at 60-80kmh, never used to be like that.
An important thing to remember is that any mod only realises its full potential when it is done with other improvements to complement it. Just food for thought!

[BENT_8]

hey geckoxr8 i presume by induction pipe you mean the pipe from the airbox to the throttle body.
I wonder what would happen if you left all your other mods on but put the original induction pipe back on and ran that.
surely all the other mods would be severely compromised by the lack of air flow after all an engine is basically a large air pump and the key factor being volume of air as opposed to air temp
I think the idea of cold air producing greater horsepower has its place but only after the engine has sucked all the air it can possibly get in the fastest possible time. Then i think a few degrees colder may increase combustion.
My point is that the definition of Cold Air Intake is sometimes misinterpreted as the answer to induction performance and not enough consideration is given to getting all that cold air into the engine.

[geckoGT]

If I went back to standard, which I can't as it has been given the flick, it wold throw out some of the gains from my other mods, particularly the edit. That is the point, true gains are seen when mods are done as a suite. I aggree with your coment on cold air, the true gain is when temp is rdeuced and volume is increased, with the maintenance of good velocity. All this is hard to achieve in the real world and a lot of off the shelf CAI units fall short in the volume aspect, especially at low road speeds.

[BENT_8]

To tell you the truth, i think people with I6 should count themselves lucky in the induction scheme of things.
I'm spewin that i cant get any more air through that stupid air flow meter mounted on the air cleaner box in my XR8. I believe i can get a GT one from an EL or something but they are big bucks.
I guess at the end of the day its a case of all or nothin when chasin quick times.

[vztrt]

When I did my CAI (F6 box and snorkel) it was more for throttle response and less of a rough ideal (which it did once and a while). For the I6 it didn't give set of the pants improvement but the car is running better and I'm happy with the mod.

[philstoj]

Originally Posted by BENT_8

To tell you the truth, i think people with I6 should count themselves lucky in the induction scheme of things.
I'm spewin that i cant get any more air through that stupid air flow meter mounted on the air cleaner box in my XR8. I believe i can get a GT one from an EL or something but they are big bucks.
I guess at the end of the day its a case of all or nothin when chasin quick times.

You can always fit a granatelli 75mm bullet maf which has no restriction at all.
Or for something cheaper, an au v8 one which would be the same size as a GT one, but lots cheaper.

[XTC 190]

I think when it comes down to it any gain is a good gain no matter how or why you get as long as you do