Blown head gasket?

apoc · 22-01-2007, 06:49 PM

Okay peoples not real happy here :( , and i warn you this is a bit of an epic..

I just got my exhaust done today, hooray

a 2 1/2 cat back mandral bent with oval tip, both mufflers, i was stoked it sounded sweet, quiet to cruise at both 60, and 100 - 110 km, but you knew if you were putting your foot down.

So this is all cool, i decided i would give it a bit more on the way home, have a good listen to my zorst (i have been driving like grandpa scroty since buying this car seeing as how i got a ticket 2nd time i drove it :(, and i want it to last... )

Car seemed a little lumpy pulling up from work, only really noticable at idle when driving car seems fine..., decide to take a friend for a cruise to show him the new car and exhaust, sitting at the lights car is lumpy, not heaps severe but noticebly not a happy ducky. So went for a bit of a run stopped at more lights lumpy still :(.

So i popped the bonnet when i got home and from what i can see there is some freshish looking oil coming from the front intake side corner between the head and the block. Were not talking heaps of oil but enough to make a 6-7cm patch glisten. There seems to be some oldish looking oil and crud at the actual join of the head and the block perhaps i just agitated an old leak..

There doesnt appear to be any dis-colouration or milkyness to the oil, on dipstick its like honey, damn clean honey. Does the lack of any apparent water leak in or out of the block indicate that it isnt simply a gasket leak?

Plugs new, leads fine, oil & water level fine and new.

So i am guessing i have a blown head gasket?
A compression test should tell me if this is the case shouldn't it?
How much am i looking at to have it replaced?
Can i do it myself, i have no manual...? I have replaced an intake manifold gasket on the VN V6 successfully (that is about the level of my skill and patience)

Cheers people, im prolly overthinking the whole thing, but hey, when the car aint running schmick i stress.

Simon

atec77 · 22-01-2007, 06:53 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc

Okay peoples not real happy here :( , and i warn you this is a bit of an epic..

I just got my exhaust done today, hooray

a 2 1/2 cat back mandral bent with oval tip, both mufflers, i was stoked it sounded sweet, quiet to cruise at both 60, and 100 - 110 km, but you knew if you were putting your foot down.

So this is all cool, i decided i would give it a bit more on the way home, have a good listen to my zorst (i have been driving like grandpa scroty since buying this car seeing as how i got a ticket 2nd time i drove it :(, and i want it to last... )

Car seemed a little lumpy pulling up from work, only really noticable at idle when driving car seems fine..., decide to take a friend for a cruise to show him the new car and exhaust, sitting at the lights car is lumpy, not heaps severe but noticebly not a happy ducky. So went for a bit of a run stopped at more lights lumpy still :(.

So i popped the bonnet when i got home and from what i can see there is some freshish looking oil coming from the front intake side corner between the head and the block. Were not talking heaps of oil but enough to make a 6-7cm patch glisten. There seems to be some oldish looking oil and crud at the actual join of the head and the block perhaps i just agitated an old leak..

There doesnt appear to be any dis-colouration or milkyness to the oil, on dipstick its like honey, damn clean honey. Does the lack of any apparent water leak in or out of the block indicate that it isnt simply a gasket leak?

Plugs new, leads fine, oil & water level fine and new.

So i am guessing i have a blown head gasket?
A compression test should tell me if this is the case shouldn't it?
How much am i looking at to have it replaced?
Can i do it myself, i have no manual...? I have replaced an intake manifold gasket on the VN V6 successfully (that is about the level of my skill and patience)

Cheers people, im prolly overthinking the whole thing, but hey, when the car aint running schmick i stress.

Simon

Check the connectors on your injectors , a cojmpression test should confirm no bad gasket , I suspecy fuel / injector at low revs being faulty .Do the compression and get back to us .

apoc · 22-01-2007, 08:03 PM

Yet to do a compression test but i think i have some water on the move, i have some water collecting in the tip of my exhaust,

:

Time to try and find that ellusive compression gauage, its the sort of thing thats totally supposed to be in the shed but @#$%ed if i can find it.

Simon.

EvilChief · 23-01-2007, 01:47 AM

first of all does ur oil look milky?

and water at the tip of exhaust is nothing unusual

james22 · 23-01-2007, 04:17 PM

Another idea is get a mechanic to pressure check your coolant system. It will tell you if water is getting into the block. without doing a compression check, which takes far longer.

apoc · 23-01-2007, 07:32 PM

About the compression test,

All cylinders appear to have a compression reading of 170 - 180 Psi.

EvilChief - "first of all does ur oil look milky?"

Well the oil i pull from the dipstick is still crystal clear i dont see anything wrong with it.

EvilChief - "and water at the tip of exhaust is nothing unusual"

Well after the compression test i did today, i cupped my hands near the end of the exhaust and directed the air towards the rear bumper bar and it was like holding a pot of boiling water near a window, you could see the steam spread across the bumper of the car then evaporate as i took my hands away.
It doesnt smell like fuel at all...

You could feel the dampness on your hands, its not spitting droplets but this doesnt strike me as normal amount of water to be coming from the exhaust and this is in the afternoon, not very humid day, after driving the car for about an hour.

So heres what i know;

1. Compression on all cylinders 170+ Psi - should be fine
2. Seems to be excessive water from exhaust
3. Minor oil leak on the outside front intake side of the head, between block and head
4. engine lurches, sometimes more noticeable than others, much more noticeable at idle than higher rpm but can hear the putting noise in the exhaust. like one or two cylinders isnt firing properly or semi firing (intermitently).
5. Plugs are new like 3 week old iridium plugs, which all look okay.
6. Leads seem fine, no visible arc-ing at night
7. Oil seems clean off dipstick.

If it wasnt for what i believe to be lots of water vapor in the exhaust, id be inclined to forget about the head gasket and just say it was leaking a bit of oil out the side not a huge problem, and i have had a few cars so im not completely new to the bit of water out the exhaust thing (more at startup than anything), you can smell and feel it from the exhaust...

Is there any reason why i would get good results from a compression test, but still have water getting into the block? I have no bubbles visible in the radiator overflow...

What do people think of this? I would hate to try changing the head gasket only to find it didnt resolve the problem (or really id hate to pay for it

).

I am yet to get a cooling system pressure test how much is one worth to get?

Please help i liked my smooth as falcon, not this lumpy beast i have parked outside now :(

Cheers,
Simon.

peterban · 23-01-2007, 07:47 PM

Is water disappearing out of the resevoir without actually leaking anywhere?
If water level isn't dropping then water can't be getting past head or gasket into exhaust

apoc · 23-01-2007, 08:07 PM

peterban- "Is water disappearing out of the resevoir without actually leaking anywhere?"

Well it has only been doing this for a full day now, and this afternoon i went round to a dudes place who was a mechanic and he put more water in it (to the brim, it was just underneath the full line (checking for bubbles), so i havent seen any substantial drop in the water level, i guess time will tell as it is overfull now, and still steaming, so if the water level drops substantially like below the max fill line again over the next few days then i will say yes...

However no water leaks from anywhere else in the car. I am still unsure about the pressure of the cooling system, as at least twice this afternoon old mate took of the radiator cap, without any hissing or explosions of hot water as id expect to get. I drove it only like 5 mins, cap taken off, idle for 10mins+ looking for bubbles as car got hot, cap put on, drive for 10mins while car warm (into normal operating temp on gauge), cap taken off... no hiss. Maybe it didnt have enough time to build up the pressure.

Maybe tommorow after i drive to work (i hate driving it as a lame duck but ive gotta make money to fix it somehow :( ), i will bust open the radiator cap and see if there is pressure.

Cheers dude,
Simon

peterban · 23-01-2007, 09:31 PM

When the head gasket went on my sons EF it started with a slight miss at idle and having to top the reservoir up with about a litre in a couple of weeks. Then we had to top up every second day then every day and finally every hour!!! ( this happened over a month )
When we took the plugs out one was really clean and the rest had a little bit of grey carbon on them.
When I kicked over the car without the plugs in, water spat out from number 1 plug hole so took the head off and had it crack tested and machined and put it back on.

The water level may drop back to Max line as if you overfill it, it will be likely some will be pushed out the overflow pipe ( thats why the max line is marked ).

If its not the head I would be looking at fuel problem, maybe partially blocked injector or ISC valve or dirty throttle body.

Tech Trainer · 23-01-2007, 10:08 PM

To rule the head gasket out once and for all get a cylinder leakage test done. A cooling system pressure test will be good too, just in case it is not leaking into the combustion chambers.

This will show you exactly which cylinder is leaking and where to, if at all.

From there you can decide what to do next.

apoc · 23-01-2007, 10:32 PM

peterban - "When the head gasket went on my sons EF it started with a slight miss at idle and having to top the reservoir up with about a litre in a couple of weeks. Then we had to top up every second day then every day and finally every hour!!! ( this happened over a month )"

Well like i said i am yet to see a significant drop in water level, as there probably hasnt been enough time or driving to boil/leak that much water yet.
Even though this is a terrible measure of leakage, from what you say i might have lost 142mls in a day, cant say i watch the overflow that much and slope of car could easily throw that out. Time will tell now.

peterban - "The water level may drop back to Max line as if you overfill it, it will be likely some will be pushed out the overflow pipe ( thats why the max line is marked )."

I understand this, and it is slightly annoying, maybe i should purge the tank till it is back down to say on the bottom of the max fill line, which i am pretty sure at the temp it is running it will not overflow, and then see what happens.

peterban - "If its not the head I would be looking at fuel problem, maybe partially blocked injector or ISC valve or dirty throttle body."

The mechanic dude i took it too, said to also inspect these avenues. But as i have said before the amount of wetness coming from the exhaust, has totally thrown me on the path of blown gasket. And i ask again is there any way a compression test would not show that there was actually water leaking into the cylinders?

Quoting myself - "i cupped my hands near the end of the exhaust and directed the air towards the rear bumper bar and it was like holding a pot of boiling water near a window, you could see the steam spread across the bumper of the car then evaporate as i took my hands away.
It doesnt smell like fuel at all..." and my hands felt wet and you could see the steam spread across the tip of my exhaust aswell.

Would there be any reason that something fuel related could cause this wetness? "It doesnt smell like fuel at all..."

I mean i could totally be wrong about this wetness but it was above 30 degrees, fine day after driving for some time, and my hands and the exhaust tip and bumperbar were showing steamy dampness after a few seconds of my hands directing the flow, not what i would expect from a car normally...

thanks again,
Simon.

apoc · 23-01-2007, 10:44 PM

Tech Trainer - "To rule the head gasket out once and for all get a cylinder leakage test done.", could you please explain a little more what this is and how it differs from a compression test please. So that way when i take it to someone and say i want a cylinder leakage test done i know what they did and dont just stand there and go "ah-mmmm-yeah-mmm" and shake my head in all different directions - in mechanic body language saying "rob me blind i want it fixed i have money (@#$% all and hard earned

) "

Any idea on a price to get either the cylinder leakage test, or the cooling system pressure test done even guesstimates would be appreciated.

Simo, out.
L8r.

mik · 23-01-2007, 11:27 PM

its normal to have some condensation coming out of the exhaust, especially when just started and for a little while later.

james22 · 24-01-2007, 11:41 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc

Tech Trainer - "To rule the head gasket out once and for all get a cylinder leakage test done.", could you please explain a little more what this is and how it differs from a compression test please. So that way when i take it to someone and say i want a cylinder leakage test done i know what they did and dont just stand there and go "ah-mmmm-yeah-mmm" and shake my head in all different directions - in mechanic body language saying "rob me blind i want it fixed i have money (@#$% all and hard earned

) "

Any idea on a price to get either the cylinder leakage test, or the cooling system pressure test done even guesstimates would be appreciated.

Simo, out.
L8r.

Its called a leak down or coolant pressure check. Any mechanic should be able to do it. Its only a 10min job, shouldn't cost screw all. And it will definitely tell you if water is getting inside the combustion chamber, therefore telling you if you need a new gasket.

Cheers James

apoc · 24-01-2007, 08:55 PM

peterban - "If its not the head I would be looking at fuel problem, maybe partially blocked injector or ISC valve or dirty throttle body."

This afternoon i took off the throttle body and ISC valve, and cleaned both of them, the TB had a fair bit of oily gunge where the butterfly closes and a bit generally elsewhere. The ISC valve ports on the TB were pretty well unrestricted/clean. I can see why my efforts to adjust the idle speed when i first got the car was a bit of a mish.

Unfortunately this didn't sort out the missing/lumpyness from my idle, the idle speed itself was more stable however at 650rpm on the tacho.

Another thing someone at work suggested is that i might actaully have water in the fuel i got or just crap fuel in general. He also said if i have got water in the tank to put some metho into the tank. I have done this 500mls to a 3/4 full tank (i noticed that metho is like 95% ethanol).

I would like to know how the metho actually sorts out this water problem, does it just seperate it in the tank or does it bond with the water to speed up the process of getting it out of the tank? Can i expect to see an improvement straight away or will it take time to get rid of the water?

So i guess at this time i want to get:

1. A cooling system pressure test / leakdown test
2. Injectors serviced, flow tested
3. Keep an eye on my water level in the meantime and wonder if that metho is gonna sort something out

Cheers all for the feedback, ill keep posting as things happen.

Simon.

mik · 24-01-2007, 10:29 PM

might be worth changing the fuel filter if you don`t know when it was done last.

apoc · 24-01-2007, 11:21 PM

Hey mik,

Yeah mate i changed the fuel filter out less than a month ago, and had no problems b4 the change or immediately after, the old filter was pretty filthy the fuel that came out of it was dirty looking.

Id be pretty suprised if the new filter had become blocked enough to give me issues.

Cheers,
Simon.

peterban · 25-01-2007, 01:31 AM

I am sorry the info so far has not fixed the problem.

Crap fuel usually makes the car run rough at all different rev levels.

Sometimes to check for a leak in the cooling system they pressurise the system and leave a guage attatched overnight and then check the next morning to see if it has dropped or not. This picks up very small leaks.

I would be surprised if it was the head as water level is not changing dramatically.

apoc · 25-01-2007, 07:13 PM

peterban, cheers mate im sure itll get sorted out somehow...

I have driven to work and back today with the metho in the tank and it seems to be missing less, I hope (i think in vain) that it is simply a fuel problem, i put another 500ml of metho in the tank this afternoon and ill wait see what happens.

Im yet to check the water level in the reservoir yet this afternoon, hopeless i know but damn its the start of a 3 day weekend, plenty of time for that yet...

Cheers again,
Simon.

apoc · 26-01-2007, 01:11 PM

Okay i went for a drive again this morning still with a bit of the lumpyness (drove for about an hour), I checked the water level in the reservoir and even at its level above the max line, which i marked on 3 corners of the reservoir with a permanent marker, i cant see that it has lost any water at all, and if i did it would be lucky to be 50mls.

So now bloody what ?

Whats left?

Fuel pressure, could this cause the car to miss the way it is? The car gets up and goes fine, doesn't try to rev up and splutter lilke it needs fuel, it just seems to rev cleaner and pull harder the higher the rpm.

Partially busted ignition coil? Is there some sort of capacitance or resistance values to check this out see what its like?

Ignition leads? I said they seem fine, but is there some resistance values someone can supply me with to give em another sort of check. I'll also fire her up in the dark again and double check for arcing.

Injectors still unknown condition...

Spark plugs, the pretty damn new iridiums, about them, i told a dude at work about the condition/appearance of them, the ceramic insulator bit had a bit of a dirty mark on it, more noticeably on two of the cylinders, it was just a small patch bout a 1/5 of the surface, kinda looked like a coffee stain (coffee with milk... lol). He said that it was possibly signs of something fouling the plug, water he and i were presuming. What else could cause this?

Valve problems? I would think that the compression test would have shown these to be defective if such were the case. But i honestly dont know.

Oxygen sensor or cat? just thought id throw these ones in as i remeber on the VN that the O2 sensors were sesitive to different gasket compunds and having the exhaust done maybe something got to it... as for the cat maybe it was disturbed when i had the exhaust done, buggered if i know how that would cause the problems i have but if its totally shot down as a stupid suggestion, i can remove another item from the equation...

Im clutching at straws now,

Any more info, suggestions, whatever would be appreciated,

The saga continues,
Simon.

au2sw · 26-01-2007, 02:52 PM

from the sounds of things, the metho is working, so i would be saying it is the petrol - has water in it or is just dirty - when this started happening, had you just filled the car up say with in the last day or 2? if so was it at your regular servo? if yes to both, possible that the servo has been delivered withy some contaminated fuel recently and you have ended up with a tank full. avoid that servo for a couple of weeks fro the contaminated fuel to be replaced then you shouldnt have a problem again. if the lumpiness hasnt changed much after the metho, try a bottle of injector clean in your next fill up, this takes a couple of das to work but will clean your injectors. if you're concerned about the o2 sensor, an auto elec will be able to check to see if it is working properly, otherwise i dont think they cost too much if you just want to replace it anyway. and if it was the cat, you'd more then likely here the rattle from it as the internals fall apart, also the car would feel a little sluggish off the line aswell.

atec77 · 26-01-2007, 03:01 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc

peterban - "If its not the head I would be looking at fuel problem, maybe partially blocked injector or ISC valve or dirty throttle body."

This afternoon i took off the throttle body and ISC valve, and cleaned both of them, the TB had a fair bit of oily gunge where the butterfly closes and a bit generally elsewhere. The ISC valve ports on the TB were pretty well unrestricted/clean. I can see why my efforts to adjust the idle speed when i first got the car was a bit of a mish.

Unfortunately this didn't sort out the missing/lumpyness from my idle, the idle speed itself was more stable however at 650rpm on the tacho.

Another thing someone at work suggested is that i might actaully have water in the fuel i got or just crap fuel in general. He also said if i have got water in the tank to put some metho into the tank. I have done this 500mls to a 3/4 full tank (i noticed that metho is like 95% ethanol).

I would like to know how the metho actually sorts out this water problem, does it just seperate it in the tank or does it bond with the water to speed up the process of getting it out of the tank? Can i expect to see an improvement straight away or will it take time to get rid of the water?

So i guess at this time i want to get:

1. A cooling system pressure test / leakdown test
2. Injectors serviced, flow tested
3. Keep an eye on my water level in the meantime and wonder if that metho is gonna sort something out

Cheers all for the feedback, ill keep posting as things happen.

Simon.

The methos is hydroscopic , it absorbs water from the tank and should allow it to be burnt .

peterban · 26-01-2007, 05:09 PM

If this all started just after you had the exhaust changed I am wondering whether they did some arc welding of your exhaust without disconnecting the battery.
This could have affected the computer somehow ( just a thought )

The other thing is maybe a faulty plug, were these changed at the same time as the exhaust?

I am still leaning towards a partially blocked injector or crook fuel.

Check your fuel filter again to see whether your fuel is still dirty.
If you take the filter off and tap the filter ( tank end ) into your hand you can inspect what comes out of it . If it has little blobs in it this is a sure sign of water in the fuel

apoc · 26-01-2007, 08:54 PM

Well unfortunately last time i filled up i filled it to the brim, still got a bit under half a tank to go... And i cant remember which of my two regular servos i got the fuel from, but at least there is only two i have to avoid...

Injector cleaner is on the shopping list, at like $10 its worth a hit.

I will be stoked if all this has been caused by crap fuel

: Come-on crap fuel :sm_headba

Keep ya's posted,
Simo.

atec77 · 26-01-2007, 09:18 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by apoc

Well unfortunately last time i filled up i filled it to the brim, still got a bit under half a tank to go... And i cant remember which of my two regular servos i got the fuel from, but at least there is only two i have to avoid...

Injector cleaner is on the shopping list, at like $10 its worth a hit.

I will be stoked if all this has been caused by crap fuel

: Come-on crap fuel :sm_headba

Keep ya's posted,
Simo.

My EL /xr6 motor was dropping an injector on low revs when hot the last few days , I put kits through them this morning and its cured , still idles low atm and needs the timing redone but if I hadn/t know what it was I might have been worried like you , now it revs like crazy to 6k and idles with some camminess at 700 or so , timing total is only 28 deg so I have to bump the bast a little ( cam is rather large)
I still think its an injection problem , might be as suggested the computer so drop a battery lead for 1/2 hours and see what happens

apoc · 26-01-2007, 11:45 PM

Hey atec77,

"My EL /xr6 motor was dropping an injector on low revs when hot the last few days , I put kits through them this morning and its cured", What exactly is this "kits" you are refering to?

and also

"might be as suggested the computer so drop a battery lead for 1/2 hours and see what happens", is it really necessary to leave the power disconnected for 1/2 an hour to reset the ECU?

And also on the topic of reseting the ECU is there a fuse to pull for the ECU alone so that my stupid radio doesnt get security locked (ill search the forum for this aswell)?

Cheers,
Simo.

apoc · 27-01-2007, 06:43 PM

atec77 - "The methos is hydroscopic , it absorbs water from the tank and should allow it to be burnt ."

Just checked on the word "hydroscopic" it isn't listed in the dictionarys but seems to be widely used non-the-less as the following word,

"hygroscopic (hī'grə-skŏp'ĭk) Pronunciation Key
Relating to a compound that easily absorbs moisture from the atmosphere. " - The American Heritage Science Dictionary

Hydroscopic seems to make more sense as hydro is to do with water, but like i said i did a search online doesnt register, google gets hits about hydroscopic but the links to dictionarys showing hydroscopic, you will in fact find stuff about a hydroscope - "An optical device used for viewing objects far below the surface of water" - http://www.thefreedictionary.com/hydroscopic

There are some chemistry related articles about the hydroscopic properties of wood and stuff but they do relate the the absorbtion and release of moisture...

Just curious about the word i had to look it up see what the go was...

Simon.

apoc · 28-01-2007, 06:29 PM

Hey all, i have reset my ECU, and still no dice, same symptoms. Im still yet to refill the tank see what happens there...

Simon.

apoc · 01-02-2007, 11:06 PM

New fuel (98 shell vortex) in the car today and still being tempremental, when i pull up at lights the car idles ok for a few seconds then as time passes it gets a bit of a kick which gets more violent to a degree.

Still dont appear to be losing a significant amount of water (like none from what i can see)

Can anyone get to me with some test procedures for coil pack and ignition leads.. (like resistances and stuff) at this point in time i am thinking about replacing the leads this weekend to eliminate another part of the equation, while im at superweep ill grab some injector cleaner.

Is there any way the battery could be related to the problem i am suffering i only have a dodgy one the yard put in cause the other one in it died. Car starts okay, not instant you turn key but at least a few secs afterwards, always.

Damn i wish i knew what was up... and its so inconveinient to get it looked at cause all the joints shut on the weekend. I need to at least know what it is, it sucks to be randomly testing and replacing things.

I think ill go cry now, lol
Anymore ideas suggestions or those resistances would be appreciated.

Simon

LOWAU · 02-02-2007, 12:07 AM

How many kms has the car done and are the leads on the car the original(red motorcraft) ones?

I changed mine at 100km and it fixed the slight miss on idle.