FPV outsells HSV in jan '09

[snappy]

Its something.

HSV, FPV curb production as sales go off the boil

By DAVID HASSALL 10 February 2009
http://www.goauto.com.au/mellor/mell...257559001513F8

HOLDEN Special Vehicles and Ford Performance Vehicles have not been immune from the global downturn, being forced to reduce their workforces and cut production, despite recording near-record sales in 2008.

The two local but foreign-owned hot-car outfits say they are maintaining their research and development spending levels in the face of declining fortunes, but both are reviewing future model programs outside of their mainstream offerings.

FPV general manager Rod Barrett told GoAuto that the slow-selling Territory-based FX6 would be reviewed in coming months, ahead of the coming facelift, while the much talked-about GTHO revival had been further delayed.

And HSV managing director Phil Harding said that while side projects had been put on hold, work continued on LPG engineering.

He said a decision would be made by Easter on a business case for diesel-engined models, which are considered vital to develop exports to European markets.

HSV initiated a rare retail action late last year, with prices slashed by between $6000 and $14,000 to clear an unexpected stockpile, which dramatically boosted sales in December and cut its dealer stocks from a high of 1200 cars to fewer than 600.

The company did not build any cars in January (apart from a handful of W427s) and its daily build rate for at least the next few months will be half that of only six months ago.

FPV has also cut production by about half, but did not need to discount its cars to reduce stock levels, which have been pegged back from 650 cars to fewer than 350.

One unexpected result of HSV’s big sales drive in December was a January hangover that led to a rare sales victory by FPV, with 124 sales versus 117 for the first month of the year.

But HSV remains the special-vehicle king in Australia, selling 4778 vehicles in 2008 (444 fewer than the previous year, but still 724 ahead of the brand’s next-best year) while FPV racked up 2035 sales, which is only 92 units fewer than the previous year and 109 down on its record year in 2006.

Neither company is crowing about sales, though, as they face difficult trading conditions and reflect on having to reduce their respective workforces.

While FPV has been forced to lay-off 12 of its 70 workers, HSV has reduced its staff by 15 people (out of 200) and told all its contract workers – which accounted for 60 per cent of its production workforce only six months ago – there will be no work for them until at least June.

HSV resumed production last week after an extended Christmas break and is now building only 15-20 cars a day (about 50 per cent of capacity) while FPV is producing 10 cars a day (against a capacity of 18).

Only six months ago, both companies were running at full capacity to meet record demand.

Both Mr Barrett and Mr Harding were reluctant to predict where the market would go in 2009. They hoped that the niche nature of their segment would help them in the drastically contracting overall market, but admit they would be ecstatic to get close to their 2008 results.

HSV sold 1044 ClubSport R8s last year, a record 956 Maloo utes, 906 GTS sedans, 359 Senator Signatures, 267 Grange, 134 Vauxhall-built VXRs, 64 Tourer wagons and 90 W427s.

FPV’s 2008 sales total consisted of 697 GTs, 174 GTPs, 81 GTEs, 537 F6 sedans, 154 F6 Utes, and 208 Pursuit and Super Pursuit utes combined.

Mr Barrett admitted that the numbers for the Territory-based F6X – 178 sales, well short of the 600 projected when the company’s first non-Falcon product was launched 12 months ago – made it hard to justify the investment required to do a facelift of the stand-alone vehicle.

“We haven’t sold as many of the F6X as we would have liked,” said Mr Barrett from his Campbellfield office.

Although he cautiously said the SUV will continue, he added that “we’ll have to manage our expectations on what it does for us” and admitted that the program will be reviewed when the donor Territory is facelifted in about June.

“Mid-year I think we’d have another look at where we go with it. I would like to think (sales) would improve, but it is the second most expensive car in our fleet, so it may be the one that takes the brunt more than anything else.

“This year FPV is about prioritising and consolidating. And I would not be the only person in the automotive industry saying those two words.”

Mr Barrett said that a revival of the GTHO nameplate after more than three decades has not progressed past his own desk and was definitely on the backburner.

“It wouldn’t be as close as it was 18 months ago when you first spoke to me. 18 months ago, when I first started (at FPV), things were different. There were so many other things that came in front of it – we had to get the FG up and running, there were eight cars there, the F6X …

“The GTHO was always, and still is, a long-term project. I’d still love to do it (but) it’s a young kid’s dream – and he turns 49 this year.”

Left: HSV ClubSport R8

While FPV is still planning to produce a Focus-based model when local production of the small car begins in 2011, this year it will concentrate on its existing models and weathering the automotive storm.

“We are very niche,” said Mr Barrett of his optimism selling premium high-performance large cars in the tough current environment.

“It might be tough to sell a six-cylinder Commodore, for example, but there’s still that niche out there of people wanting to buy a high-performance car, and petrol’s not expensive any more…

“Don’t get me wrong, it was a tough year, but we didn’t give our cars away at the end of the year,” he said in reference to HSV’s big end-of-year sale.

After HSV sales dropped from an average 450 a month to 250 when the government increased the luxury car tax, HSV slashed prices across its full range (apart from the new Tourer wagon) and consequently sold a massive 853 cars in December.

“Other manufacturers that are in close competition with us have been doing some hefty, hefty, hefty discounts – and we’re not going to compete with them,” said Mr Barrett.

“We’ve got a good strategy of producing a set number of cars and we’ll continue to do that. We don’t want to flood the market.

“When you do that sort of thing (discounting), you’re not only flooding the market … what does it do (to resale value)? What does it do also to your customer loyalty? It must be killing residuals. We’re trying to protect that.

“The way the world is at the moment, cars go down in value, particularly high-performance cars and luxury cars, but I’m not going to go out there ‘plagiarising’ the market sort of thing – that’s just crazy.

“I can’t tell a dealer what to sell a car at, I can only give recommended retail prices, but what we can do is not offer massive discounts. We’ve just reduced our production down a fair bit, so we’re not flooding the market with cars that can’t be sold.

“We only build to order from dealers – they order it, we build it, we send it out and they put it on the lot.”

Of course, HSV defends its retail action strategy, saying it was a necessary short-term move to clear dealer stocks that had risen unexpectedly because of the post-LCT downturn.

Mr Harding conceded that customers who bought cars at full retail may not be happy, but said it was no different to the many other manufacturers that have reduced prices to clear stock.

“We don’t need telling what’s good for our brand and what’s not,” said Mr Harding of his rival.

“I think the short, sharp treatment was the best one. I think if you run bonuses for too long then you end up with an accepted price point that you can never get away from. We don’t often do (sales), but you’ve got to do it at times and then you’ve got to pull away from it, which is what we’ve done.

“The day they changed the luxury car tax was a day that sales started to soften (but) I can’t stop the (production) pipeline in a day.

“You get that (LCT) changing, you get people talking about a financial crisis – compared to the UK and Europe, there isn’t one here, but everyone thinks there is – talk of credit squeezes, talk of dealers who have to refinance their businesses because of GMAC and GE pulling out, all of that created a condition where we had to respond, so the December campaign was really to correct that.

“We’ve got 600 (cars in stock) at the beginning of the year. With the actions we’ve taken in January and February, we’ll be down to 500. We chose not to build any cars in January just to get the stock levels under control. We’re getting dealers now screaming at us because they haven’t got enough cars, so it’s fixed.

“We have planned the year in four quarters. We’re going to make very few cars in the first quarter and then slowly take each quarter as it comes so that we can properly manage supply.

“If we get a good (sales) number this year, fine, but I’m not shooting for big numbers. I’m shooting to keep the supply and demand under control – whatever sales are will be a result of that.

“In line with that, we’ve battened down the hatches. We’ve taken more than 15 per cent out of our overheads in the last couple of months. From August to December last year we got rid of 15 heads.

“It’s easy with record sales for companies to become fat, dumb and happy, and you’ve always got to resist that temptation. HSV has been very miserly when it comes to spending money internally and hiring staff. We’ve always been a fairly tight ship, but there’s always places where you can find it.

“We know there’s demand for the product, but not to the same degree as our launch year (for the VE-based range in 2007) because the market conditions aren’t right yet.

“I would be ecstatic if I met 2008 figures. I’m capable of making 2008 figures because, if the demand is there, we can build more cars (but) this business will survive on a much smaller volume of cars if we control our costs.

“You would be extremely rich if you could predict what was going to happen in the second half of this year. What we are trying to do is not supply one more car than necessary, monitor supply and demand slowly, keep that stock control under control so it’s around 400-600 cars.

“If the market picks up, it picks up. But does anyone else know what it is? I don’t think they do. It’s almost impossible. For 20 years HSV has pretty well known what it’s going to do and how it’s going to grow, but this is one of those years where we have to measure our business against what is happening in the marketplace more than ever before.”

HSV’s export business has also been affected by the global recession, with New Zealand down 21.2 per cent to 490 cars last year and the UK down 12.6 per cent to 257. Mr Harding said the UK market is “absolutely shot (because) they’ve had stuff go wrong that Australia hasn’t had – they’ve had banks fall over”.

Although Middle East sales rose some 46.0 per cent in 2008 to 219 units, he said that the recession was also starting to have the same impact there.

Plans to expand sales in Europe are dependent on producing diesel variants because they account for three-quarters of sales across the Continent and the growing new market of Russia.

“It may never happen – it’s a business decision we’ve yet to take,” said Mr Harding. “We’ll probably make a decision on that by Easter.

“HSV is very product-oriented and I believe in these times if you do anything to skimp on your R&D then you’re not preparing yourself right for the future. Our engineering (department) is extremely busy and, while I’m pulling back the pennies on everything in the business, we’re not skimping there.

“Diesel is a massive investment, so it’s a big swallow-hard technology decision with a lot of finance in it, and that’s difficult at the moment with the way the market is trending. It’s a tough call. That’s why we’re not making it today.

“Even LPG is a tough one. For our relatively small company, completing that will demand $1 million of investment. Is that going to work for us? I take the view that, even if it didn’t work for you this year, it is one of those things that you are going to need in the cupboard to pull out in two or three years’ time.

[snappy]

Its not much to brag about i know.
But i found it a good article to read.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by snappy84

FPV has also cut production by about half, but did not need to discount its cars to reduce stock levels, which have been pegged back from 650 cars to fewer than 350.

Umm is it just me that was seeing the FG GT right at the front of Ford dealer lots with $55K big a$$ed stickers on the front windscreens???

Maybe I need to get my big a$$ed sticker reading glasses checked, must have some dust on them causing my confusion

[geckoGT]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

Umm is it just me that was seeing the FG GT right at the front of Ford dealer lots with $55K big a$$ed stickers on the front windscreens???

Maybe I need to get my big a$$ed sticker reading glasses checked, must have some dust on them causing my confusion

The article did say that they (FPV) are not offering big discounts to clear stocks, but they can not control what the dealers do, only set a RRP. So he is saying it is not them, just the dealers. I wonder.

[zx10]

Originally Posted by geckoGT

The article did say that they (FPV) are not offering big discounts to clear stocks, but they can not control what the dealers do, only set a RRP. So he is saying it is not them, just the dealers. I wonder.

That sounds correct.

A guy I know works as a new car manager for a Holden/HSV dealership and he was crying in December about the prices that Holden and HSV had set. He did sell heaps of cars though.

Some dealers would have been (and may still be) holding a lot of stock and some would not. If the guys who had the stock needed the cash flow then they would have discounted the cars. If FPV had set the pricing the discount would have been uniform across all dealers, but they then run the risk of bastardising their product just like HSV did. Guess it worked for HSV, for December anyway.

[buggerlugs]

He is dead right about the re sale value thou. I have read in several places that the HSV vehicles are one of the most depreciating brands on the market..........

[Mr Hardware]

right after XT falcons

[Grunter]

I still see red when Rod B talks about the F6X. A great SUV and had they put more (any) effort into making it look like a FPV vehicle, then I believe they would have sold significantly more, even with the original RRP. Hell I was down for one prior to release and pulled out because it looked no different to the TT

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Grunter

I. Hell I was down for one prior to release and pulled out because it looked no different to the TT

So you're part of the reason it didn't sell well then..?

On a serious note the F6X didnt get any more that what it did because FPV only had 1 mill to play with for design and R+D....

[Cobra]

We still bought an F6X and I think for the 1 million they had, they made it go a long way. Imagine if they had 2M? I'm sure they could have done some different bumpers and wheels with that money, as that's all it really needed. On the Mechanical side, which is more important than the visual side, they hit the bulls eye IMO. That's how we justified buying it. I do hope they make an F6X model out of the facelifted Territory and make it look like it should have from the start. An F6X 310 Tezz with 20" and a nice Bodykit would be an awesome car!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Cobra

We still bought an F6X and I think for the 1 million they had, they made it go a long way. Imagine if they had 2M? I'm sure they could have done some different bumpers and wheels with that money, as that's all it really needed. On the Mechanical side, which is more important than the visual side, they hit the bulls eye IMO. That's how we justified buying it. I do hope they make an F6X model out of the facelifted Territory and make it look like it should have from the start. An F6X 310 Tezz with 20" and a nice Bodykit would be an awesome car!

Yes... the F6X looks and feels allot different to a TT.... Sit in both and drive both and its obvious...
If it gets a kit i hope its subtle.. because at the end of the day its still a SUV, not a sedan...

[red_hotxr6]

Well at least there sales are still going in the right direction i suppose. Just have to wait and see what happens in a few months time..

[GTpilot]

woo hoo, I was one of those January sales numbers.
1x FG GT Manual, in Vixen, with Leather, no stripes is now parked in the drive :

As for the discounting, it varies, I was chasing a good deal on a 2008 plate GT in Manual. I spoke with about 5-6 different dealers some discounted if they had floor stock or demos with some k's on them. Others with brand new un reg floor stock they needed a beating with a cricket bat just to get $1k off Full RRP. What really surprised me was the real lack of interest from most of them to actually want to sell a car. :togo:

One interesting thing to note from what I found was that as I wanted manual and Leather, I was looking at between 2-5k more than if I was to settle on a cloth or leather trimmed auto. Auto's seemed to be a dime a dozen, so pricing on those fairly competitive, Manuals not.

[flappist]

Originally Posted by Grunter

I still see red when Rod B talks about the F6X. A great SUV and had they put more (any) effort into making it look like a FPV vehicle, then I believe they would have sold significantly more, even with the original RRP. Hell I was down for one prior to release and pulled out because it looked no different to the TT

And this is the enigma.

A significant percentage of FPV buyers seem to be more interested in looks and appearance than performance, safety or comfort.

F6 is faster and lighter than GT at same cost but GT sells more.
GT-P and GT-E are superior to GT but GT sells more.
F6X is quite superior to TT but F6X sells slowly.

It has to be emotion as there is very little logic. I wonder if this is why there has never been a FPV GTHO.
The high end products despite extra performance, better brakes, better handling, better interior are all constantly outsold by "basic GT with stripes and bonnet decal".

Developing and releasing a $100k++ GTHO only to find it sells like the W427 would not be good for FPV at all.

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

So you're part of the reason it didn't sell well then..?
.......

The sad part is FPV's single lost purchase from me, represents 0.6% of their total F6X sales to date. I'd call that a poor investment. They might have been better off putting some of the $1m towards research prior to production.

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by flappist

And this is the enigma.

A significant percentage of FPV buyers seem to be more interested in looks and appearance than performance, safety or comfort.

F6 is faster and lighter than GT at same cost but GT sells more.
GT-P and GT-E are superior to GT but GT sells more.
F6X is quite superior to TT but F6X sells slowly.

It has to be emotion as there is very little logic. I wonder if this is why there has never been a FPV GTHO.
The high end products despite extra performance, better brakes, better handling, better interior are all constantly outsold by "basic GT with stripes and bonnet decal".

Developing and releasing a $100k++ GTHO only to find it sells like the W427 would not be good for FPV at all.

It's the balance between form and function. Unfortunately the F6X has plenty of function but little form.

[XRQTR]

You may well be surprised at just how many deposits there already are on the HO should it ever be released, a good friend of ours who manages one of the Local Ford dealers outlets has told me of around a dozen hefty deposits already layed down.

As for Ford "officially" discounting new car stock, mate ford haven't done anything "officially" since 1972, or is that 73 when they "officially" canned the P4HO.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Grunter

It's the balance between form and function. Unfortunately the F6X has plenty of function but little form.

Using that analogy then FPV should never bother doing a performance SUV or Ute? Because neither are traditional bases for a performance vehicle?

[Polyal]

Flappist, in regards to the high end models not selling I think it may be simply a case of the execution.

The idea is right, but there simply is not enough differentiation between the models. I am not talking cosmetics, more the bells and whistles.

A GT-E is not a cheap car, yet doesn't really offer anything tangible over a GTP.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by jgb

What really surprised me was the real lack of interest from most of them to actually want to sell a car. :togo:

Mate they are all trying to make as much as they can incase they lose there job, that's the biggest part of the problem, if they knocked off a couple of grand straight off the bat especially on FPV's they'd sell them quicker. But, it's easier to tell the boss that no ones buying due to the "financial crisis" rather than have to beg him to do the price so you can get another sale on the board.

Most salesman, not all as I'm sure there is at least one out their, somwhere, are driven by greed, to succeed, to prosper, to make the highest monthly $$$ gross figure for total profit, not total sales. You can make 100 sales at a profit of $100 each, a whole $10K for the month, or you can hold off for the cashed up fools that will still pay full retail as well as get the rust package and interior package (twice just in case), sell two FPV's and make around 3 times that figure.

Even though they will be, ironically, (not) selling themselves out of a job they just don't get it.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

Mate they are all trying to make as much as they can incase they lose there job, that's the biggest part of the problem, if they knocked off a couple of grand straight off the bat especially on FPV's they'd sell them quicker. But, it's easier to tell the boss that no ones buying due to the "financial crisis" rather than have to beg him to do the price so you can get another sale on the board.

Most salesman, not all as I'm sure there is at least one out their, somwhere, are driven by greed, to succeed, to prosper, to make the highest monthly $$$ gross figure for total profit, not total sales. You can make 100 sales at a profit of $100 each, a whole $10K for the month, or you can hold off for the cashed up fools that will still pay full retail as well as get the rust package and interior package (twice just in case), sell two FPV's and make around 3 times that figure.

Even though they will be, ironically, (not) selling themselves out of a job they just don't get it.

Aren't all sales people and businesses motivated by making the most money from a sale??? You know.. make a profit to keep the doors open?
The dealers aren't charity organizations, they require a positive P+L to justify the hassle..
"cashed up fools" is a rather condescending way to look at people prepared to settle on a price they're comfortable to pay.. not everyone is out to send their dealer broke on "at cost" sales....

[Grunter]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Using that analogy then FPV should never bother doing a performance SUV or Ute? Because neither are traditional bases for a performance vehicle?

Nor are Falcons, but considering the context of our discussion, it's not relevant. However considering what the F6X is currently, then I totally agree that FPV should never have bothered. It's a job half done.

To expand, the Territory is no sports car, but there is a market for "performance" SUV variants, and FPV have done well in the functional performance (in relative terms) on the F6X. Where they have missed the mark, is the presentation of that performance. I'd be very surprised if a XT falcon with the F6 drive train, white seats and painted mirrors, priced at the F6 RRP, would sell as well as the F6.

The below is quoted from FPV's website on their philosophy and I'll highlight the bit they missed with the F6X.

This is what we call Total Performance.

Ford Performance Vehicles enforces Total Performance through three governing criteria:

All FPV vehicles must have substantial power increase from its Ford donor vehicle.
Power developments must be balanced with developments to the chassis, driveline and brakes, providing an exhilarating yet safe performance package.
It must have a distinctive look and feel that accentuates the power and technology found in all FPV vehicles.

[Whitey-AMG]

Originally Posted by flappist

And this is the enigma.

A significant percentage of FPV buyers seem to be more interested in looks and appearance than performance, safety or comfort.

F6 is faster and lighter than GT at same cost but GT sells more.
GT-P and GT-E are superior to GT but GT sells more.
F6X is quite superior to TT but F6X sells slowly.

It has to be emotion as there is very little logic. I wonder if this is why there has never been a FPV GTHO.
The high end products despite extra performance, better brakes, better handling, better interior are all constantly outsold by "basic GT with stripes and bonnet decal".

Developing and releasing a $100k++ GTHO only to find it sells like the W427 would not be good for FPV at all.

It's simple really.......the GT has and probably always will be the aspirational product in the FORD / FPV line up. More people want the GT it seems and that has been proven time and time again............for whatever reason.

As soon as FPV wake up to this and start investing HEAVILY in the GT.........and make it a product that is well beyond the F6 and rival HSV products in form and function.........the better off they will be........AND they will be one possible step closer to building a serious modern day version of the GTHO.

It's like the Apple iPod......there are plenty of products out there with more features, and are cheaper etc.........BUT the humble iPod....even without an AM / FM radio feature.......outsells them all. It is the aspirational product to own.........the one that most people want to say they have.

Bugatti Veyron may very well be the fastest , quickest most ballistic car ever made, but I still reckon I'd take an F40 or a ZONDA over it........personal choice.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by flappist

And this is the enigma.

F6 is faster and lighter than GT at same cost but GT sells more.

That's because the GT has been riding off of a cult following for the last 35+ years where the F6 is only just a new born, but even in it's infant stages there is already quite a cult status even within other (make) comminuties. Just like the VL which now enjoys a huge cult following by young and old, who here would say no to either a VL SS plus pack or a Walkinshaw in there garage?? Not many

Give it time and people will figure it out, it might be too late once the bean counters kill it off and production stops at the 400kw version (please god let it come, the 400 that is), but this will only add to the status making it an even more highly desirable car than it currently is.

Originally Posted by Flappist

GT-P and GT-E are superior to GT but GT sells more.

Most buyers have no need for any of the extras that come along with the other models, or they would rather use other products so it makes sense to buy the base. Most though just want a nice car to cruise with the family that is new but still has some standing within the auto community at large.

Originally Posted by Flappist

F6X is quite superior to TT but F6X sells slowly.

At $76K you are now in serious Euro territory (pardon the pun) the S3 Disco starts at $15K less than that, a Volvo starts less than that, even a BMW and Merc come in under/around that price.

Most people looking to spend this kind of money on an SUV will always have more to choose from and that's why you see so many Euro SUVs on the road compared to even the Jap models these days. I mean the 200 series V8 twin turbo is over $120K I think it was, almost the same as a Range Rover Sport, give me the Rangey any day over a 200, that and the 200 looks too much like it's Rav4/Kluger siblings now.

In the price range of most of these cars people have never been more spoilt for choice, and it shows, just take a look in the local car park of most suburban shopping centres.

[4Vman]

There is nothing Euro at the F6X's price point that can compete on performance alone let alone functionality.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

not everyone is out to send their dealer broke on "at cost" sales....

I don't recall having mentioned anything of the sort. :

Dealers can source cars through other dealers, it's done all the time, if they can't sell you the one they have on the lot then get one from anohter dealer that has discounted it heavily and add a small margin. They would still be offering a discount over the non discounted item and still make a sale, but it's too much work for what they see as not enough gain (commision).

I'm sure that everyone will still be happy, but most of all the person that just bought it will be more likely to refer the dealer to a friend citing the dealers willingness to help any way they could. That's what gets you the referals is going the extra mile, well even a metre would be good but so many salesman arent even willing to go a millimetre.

[05_ENFORCER]

Quote:
"I'm sure that everyone will still be happy, but most of all the person that just bought it will be more likely to refer the dealer to a friend citing the dealers willingness to help any way they could. That's what gets you the referals is going the extra mile, well even a metre would be good but so many salesman arent even willing to go a millimetre."


Absolutley SPOT ON!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by XRQTR

I don't recall having mentioned anything of the sort. :

Dealers can source cars through other dealers, it's done all the time, if they can't sell you the one they have on the lot then get one from anohter dealer that has discounted it heavily and add a small margin. They would still be offering a discount over the non discounted item and still make a sale, but it's too much work for what they see as not enough gain (commision).

I'm sure that everyone will still be happy, but most of all the person that just bought it will be more likely to refer the dealer to a friend citing the dealers willingness to help any way they could. That's what gets you the referals is going the extra mile, well even a metre would be good but so many salesman arent even willing to go a millimetre.

You inferred it though, i don't believe people suddenly want a new GT just because its 5K cheaper.. discounting usually tempts people to go the next model up, but its no good if they loose margin in the process just to shift a car....

Dealers "source" cars from other dealerships all the time.. what's your point?
"Smart" sales people can close a sale without letting price being the number 1 factor. Discounting heavily is just a poor lazy way of selling, at the end of the day giving away margin is pointless if the customer is really set on what they want.

[XRQTR]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There is nothing Euro at the F6X's price point that can compete on performance alone let alone functionality.

Really??

So what additioanl functionality would an F6X have over an XC90?? or an X3?? or even an S3 Disco??

All of these others are much more capable (functional) off road than a Territory will ever be, don't take it from me, you can go and have a chat to the bloke that runs the off road courses in Rockbank. His words not mine "The territory is the least capable off roader I have ever had on my property doing an off road familiarisation course, ever."

Sure the F6 might be quick, but most people buying an SUV don't care about that, they want as many airbags as they can get seeing as most do carry the kids. They want the safest environment they can afford to move there kids and family around in, they want creature comforts, they want SUNROOFS.

My brother was looking at an F6X or at least a TT but went with a Kluger because it's actually bigger in the third row, and it comes with a sunroof, it suits there needs.

[5.4 GT]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There is nothing Euro at the F6X's price point that can compete on performance alone let alone functionality.

VW Passat R36 Wagon?

Cheaper, Better featured and Faster (straight line, corners, you name it).