Australian Drivers Are Ignoring LPG

[prydey]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

You can do two things:

* Buy an E-gas Falcon, OR
* Convert using a toroidal cylinder in the spare wheel well.

Regards,
Dave

or buy a puncture repair kit and leave the spare home. a lot of aftermarket kits give you this option anyway.

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by ADSG6ET

My oldies have one of these and love it. They drove petrol models for years and now will never get another.

However Stoney, your math does not equate.



Average cannot be less that best result, and I would thought Urban is 6.7 and City 9. Average would be 7.8l/100km.

For the record, that is a little better than what my oldies get but the do 90% city driving.

HAHA sorry buggered up when typing in the figures.

City 9L/100k's
Extra Urban 5.4L/100k's
Average 6.7L/100k's

Stoney!

[BruceT]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Modern diesel engines emit very low NOx levels. IIRC, the Euro 4 limit for NOx is 3.5g/kWh and that applies for both diesel-cycle and spark-ignition engines. The Euro 5 limit for NOx is 2.0g/kWh.

Furthermore, it's not only the fuel that you use or the engine's operating cycle that dictates emissions output. Whereas diesel engines have fairly steady NOx outputs, petrol and LPG engines can have wildly fluctuating NOx emissions depending on state of tune. A normal spark-ignition engine that runs rich will produce minimal NOx but CO emissions (and fuel consumption) will be through the roof. The same engine running lean will produce sky-high amounts of NOx while increasing combustion temperatures.

Direct injection petrol engines suffer from the same NOx problems as diesel engines because of higher oxygen levels in the exhaust due to the lean-burn combustion concept. Higher oxygen in the exhaust = inefficient NOx oxidation.

Regards,
Dave

I'll have to take your word for it Dave. I understood the most important factor in NOX emissions was the temperature of combustion, which is much higher with diesels due to higher compression ratios. It's also why they are more efficient. NOX can be cleaned up with catalytic converters, and large particulates can be filtered. Ulktra-fine partciles are very difficult to remove though, and they are the biggest local health worry.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by BruceT

NOX can be cleaned up with catalytic converters,...

Only IF there is no oxygen in the exhaust, otherwise a three way catalytic converter becomes effectively a two-way catalytic converter. That's why modern diesel engines use either Exhaust Gas Recirculation (EGR) to lower combustion temperatures or Selective Catalytic Reduction (SCR) exhaust aftertreatment using AdBlue (a urea additive).

Regards,
Dave

[BruceT]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Personally I believe that LNG looks promising for cars. The problem with CNG is the space required onboard a vehicle for the pressure vessels. Just to give you a bit of an idea, a diesel bus has a 200-300L fuel tank which yields a range of about 600km. A CNG-fuelled bus requires cylinders with a liquid capacity of well over 1000L to achieve the same range.

Regards,
Dave

I would love to see natural gas used successfully as an automotive fuel. In OZ we would have no fuel worries for decades.

The problem with LNG is that it requires refrigeration, and not just when the car is running, but when it's parked. Another problem is that you effectively throw away 30% of the energy content of methane by liquifying it. CNG retains much the energy required to pressurise it in the pressure of the gas and this is much less than required to liquify it (and keep it at -162 celcius). Finally, while CNG can be made at home if you have a natural gas supply and a good compressor, LNG requires a full cryogenic unit, which I can't imagine being affordable for the average Joe.

LNG is only really economical for bulk transport, where the volume involved would require huge and very massive pressure tanks for CNG, and the big volume reduction (to 40% or so of CNG) makes it worthwhile - cryogenic ships, road and rail tankers. I would be interested to know if there are any LNG powered road vehicles, even heavy ones. Answered my own question - there are:
http://www.ngvglobal.com/tag/liquefied-natural-gas

Ultimately having a bulky CNG tank is better than having no fuel at all, and it may come to that in a transition to renewables.

[mafiastafcar]

If I had plenty of money, I'd ditch LPG in an instant. No more spare clogging the rear, no more sluggish performance. It's great that it burns cleaner and it's cheap but yeah, I'm well and truly over it. I carry an extra couple hundred kilos of gear most days in the wagon for work. It ain't fun slamming the pedal to get over a congested T-section and having that dreaded lag as the engine sloooooowwwwly winds itself up!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by mafiastafcar

If I had plenty of money, I'd ditch LPG in an instant. No more spare clogging the rear, no more sluggish performance.

this is why the industry isn't taking off. people are not aware of the latest technology out there and base all there judgemant on old systems and technology.

the new liquid injected systems offer the same performance as on petrol and in some cases (most) actually increase performance due to a colder burn. they still drink marginally more than petrol to go the same distance but this is more than offset in the cost.

[Mr Hardware]

It ain't fun slamming the pedal to get over a congested T-section and having that dreaded lag as the engine sloooooowwwwly winds itself up!

Well there's something going wrong there, cos my dual fuel falcon has more punch out of the hole on LPG than it does on Petrol.

[mafiastafcar]

Originally Posted by prydey

this is why the industry isn't taking off. people are not aware of the latest technology out there and base all there judgemant on old systems and technology.

the new liquid injected systems offer the same performance as on petrol and in some cases (most) actually increase performance due to a colder burn. they still drink marginally more than petrol to go the same distance but this is more than offset in the cost.

Oh trust me, I'm eagerly awaiting LILPG! Maybe for the next wagon, in a few years time when it's more common and a fair bit cheaper. I'll just tolerate this old slug until then.

[mafiastafcar]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Well there's something going wrong there, cos my dual fuel falcon has more punch out of the hole on LPG than it does on Petrol.

The performance is generally acceptable for LPG, I had it in my 265 CM as well. Economy is around 17L/100km and responsiveness is about on par with other LPG cars I've driven. In this case though, I'm always carrying a lot of extra weight and the reduced low end torque of LPG is very noticable under a heavy load. It's only around 2500rpm that it really starts to boogie.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

Well there's something going wrong there, cos my dual fuel falcon has more punch out of the hole on LPG than it does on Petrol.

There must be something wrong with your car when its running on petrol then.......
My LPG wagons wouldnt pull pull the skin off a rice pudding

[prydey]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There must be something wrong with your car when its running on petrol then.......
My LPG wagons wouldnt pull the skin off a rice pudding

agreed. the only way lpg will outpower petrol in a dual fuel application is with liquid injection. anything else and you def have a problem on petrol.

mr hardware has been quite open about the fact that his car rarely sees petrol use. even though he claims it still runs fine, if its tardier than lpg then i'd suggest the injectors are not squirting as they should or a couple of sensors need replacing.

getting back to the topic, it is similar to diesel. it took years for people to accept that modern diesels were no longer the smelly rattly things they once were. lpg has many years of 'taxi image' to overcome. if these new systems are as good as what the early signs are, then it should happen.

[CHOOK N CAROL]

The government paid us to put our 1970 zc fairlane on gas, cost 1900 gov paid us 2000. Least their good for something.The old ZC is our every day driver. Fella at Crafers did an excellent job including puting the filler behind the petrol filler door. We simply added electronic ignition, decent coil and leeds and she purrs along beautifully. Has been converted 2 yrs now zero dramas. Unlucky if it costs $30 a week for every day running including a trip to town. Cant believe the gov dosnt promote it, guess there's not enough in it for them! GREEN & CLEAN, but like every thing we have that is good they sell it off to you know who!!!!!

[barbarian]

If I didn't live 5 mins from work I reckon I could have that into the 11's easily, but my BA NA XR6 gets 14.5l per 100kms constantly.

I agree. BA's are really bad on fuel consumption, mine doesn't get below 14.. but they improved on it in BF's i believe

[torbirdie]

Originally Posted by BruceT

LPG is an environmental winner - similar CO2 emissions to diesel, 20% less than petrol.

LPG is cleaner, produces minimal smog etc, however, its benefit in producing less CO2 is dubious at the moment, at the end of the day it is still a carbon based fossil fuel.
Bruce, where did you get the 20% figure, this website:
http://www.epa.vic.gov.au/Greenhouse...ouse/gh07a.htm, says its 10% difference.

This website:http://www.greenvehicleguide.gov.au/...6-fee0fcff9976 shows there is barely a difference when fitted to the current crop of cars, though their method appears to be a calculation only which is based on the fuel consumption.

Originally Posted by BruceT

Why not take advantage of LPG's high RON (up to 110 for propane, n-butane has only 91RON) and produce an engine that adapts its comprerssion up to that level - that would give more power and efficiency from LPG.

Perhaps 20% lower CO2 would be possible with a motor optimised for higher octane propane.
It would appear it is unlikely to happen Bruce, as the current economics dictate that for lpg to be cheaply priced we must allow the lower octane rated butane to be part of the mix and it could not be guaranteed that the min ron was any better than premium unleaded.

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

There must be something wrong with your car when its running on petrol then.......
My LPG wagons wouldnt pull pull the skin off a rice pudding

Couldnt be a problem Norm LPG is is far superior, havnt you been brainwashed by this thread yet :

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Couldnt be a problem Norm LPG is is far superior, havnt you been brainwashed by this thread yet :

going by some of the extravagant claims being made i think some people have been getting their gas bottles mixed up and using nitrous by accident instead of LPG....

[BruceT]

Originally Posted by torbirdie

Bruce, where did you get the 20% figure....

I probably got it from here Wikipedia, which was one of the sites I was looking at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogas
"Autogas is widely used as a "green" fuel as it decreases exhaust emissions. In particular, it reduces CO2 emissions by around 20% compared to petrol."

But, I agree, the site I originally referenced says 10% in one spot, and this in another:
"LPG gives a 10-15% carbon dioxide reduction in comparison to petrol, and it produces similar CO2 emissions to diesel.
(Tests carried out on new vehicles in 2003 showed that use of LPG resulted in a 20% saving on CO2 over petrol and a 1.8% saving compared with diesel)."
http://www.green-car-guide.com/featu...-or-hybrid.htm

This site also says 10-15%:
http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/index.c...ion=Enviroment

Yes that was a little sloppy. I suspect with a little technical effort - maybe just liquid injection - LPG should consistently return 20% less emissions that petrol. The engines it is currently used in are after all optimised for petrol.

And yes it is still a hydrocarbon fuel, which means burning it produces CO2 and H2O. It's just that light hydrocarbons, like methane, (ethane -use mostly in the chemical industry), propane and butane, (generall) release less CO2 per unit energy when burned tahn heavier fuels - like petrol and diesel - due to a greater hydrogen to carboin ratio.

Transport (including aviation) only produced 13.2% of Australia's CO2 emissions in 2007. Far behind "stationary energy" (mostly coal power) at 48.8% and even behind agriculture at 14.8%.
http://www.aph.gov.au/library/Pubs/C...ch/howMuch.htm
Given finding alternatives to transport fuels is much harder than finding alternatives to power stations, we CAN afford to buy time with transport fuels by shifting to lighter fuels (LPG, CNG), improving efficiency, using more public transport (if you've got it) and hybrids. We can use that time to develop long term solutions. We simply can't afford top dilly-dally with coal fired power - it has to go.

[duaned]

Originally Posted by barbarian

I agree. BA's are really bad on fuel consumption, mine doesn't get below 14.. but they improved on it in BF's i believe

Agreed, my BF has been sitting on 10.6L/100kms for a while now.
Would I convert it to LPG? No bloody way!

[deesun]

My BA N/A XR6 uses more than 10kpl petrol on a highway trip, from home to Sydney a minimum 40ltrs petrol for the 380k trip. 40 x 124 atm (170/69c when I converted) $50 approx. Now its 48 x 58c filling here for the trip to Sydney $28 and filling in Sydney as low as 45c, 48 x $22. No power loss SVI system. When I converted at 170 the difference was lots greater than what it is today but saving better than $40 a trip. So far Ive done 35k since converting and I'de do it again tomorrow. I think its a closed mind for not at least considering gas if the K's warrant it.

[torbirdie]

Originally Posted by BruceT

I probably got it from here Wikipedia, which was one of the sites I was looking at:
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Autogas
"Autogas is widely used as a "green" fuel as it decreases exhaust emissions. In particular, it reduces CO2 emissions by around 20% compared to petrol."

But, I agree, the site I originally referenced says 10% in one spot, and this in another:
"LPG gives a 10-15% carbon dioxide reduction in comparison to petrol, and it produces similar CO2 emissions to diesel.
(Tests carried out on new vehicles in 2003 showed that use of LPG resulted in a 20% saving on CO2 over petrol and a 1.8% saving compared with diesel)."
http://www.green-car-guide.com/featu...-or-hybrid.htm

This site also says 10-15%:
http://www.lpgautogas.com.au/index.c...ion=Enviroment

Yes that was a little sloppy. I suspect with a little technical effort - maybe just liquid injection - LPG should consistently return 20% less emissions that petrol. The engines it is currently used in are after all optimised for petrol.

.

Id would be prudent to ignore any claim made by any lpgautogas sites or indeed equipment manufacturer/distributor sites, unless they have some evidence to back it up with, they dont, just industry exaggeration that no one cares to challenge.
The "green car guide" says in 2003 they got a car to get 20% less emissions than petrol running gas, Id love to know which car that was.

[Mr Hardware]

My car on petrol behaves just like my old petrol only AU did too. I doubt there's something wrong with it.
Up to 2500rpm LPG i find is superior, after that then petrol is superior. Considering i spend 99% of my time under 2500rpm, i'm happy with LPG for it's increased low down torque.

[GasoLane]

Originally Posted by DJM83

Couldnt be a problem Norm LPG is is far superior, havnt you been brainwashed by this thread yet :

Dunno about superior but.....

Syd to Wagga on the Hume (Mild hills for those that dont know the road) pulling this last weekend ...

460kms....... $49 in gas........ @ 19.5/100km.

It'll do me....:

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

My car on petrol behaves just like my old petrol only AU did too. I doubt there's something wrong with it.
Up to 2500rpm LPG i find is superior, after that then petrol is superior. Considering i spend 99% of my time under 2500rpm, i'm happy with LPG for it's increased low down torque.

Obviously it suits your needs. It doesnt suit everyones needs so i think we get your opinion on LPG but dont force it onto others.
As for the topic at hand id NEVER consider it, ive had 2 cars that were on gas and both were bad (albeit older systems). And anyway why would a drive a V8 and whinge that PULP is to expensive anyway :togo:

[deesun]

Originally Posted by GasOLane

Dunno about superior but.....

Syd to Wagga on the Hume (Mild hills for those that dont know the road) pulling this last weekend ...

Ahem, mild hills, were you asleep between Goulburn and Mittagong? Granted its better than Wagga to Syd.

[PoweredByCNG]

Originally Posted by DJM83

And anyway why would a drive a V8 and whinge that PULP is to expensive anyway :togo:

Because you'll eventually want power mods for your V8, and Liquid LPG Injection *IS* a (relatively cheap) power mod!!!

Regards,
Dave

[Melz]

Horses for courses as the ol' saying go...

If I worked in the city I would chose petrol... but as I don't and I travel more km's than I care to remember I choose LPG.

I will openly admit that I was not a fan of the thought of LPG... but that was because I had driving a dual fuel XF! After driving a dedicated BF Futura... I was conviced gas was the way to go for me.

I don't give two hoots about 'power' out of my dedicated gas Falcon to a straight petrol Falcon. I use it because I save $120 average a week on fuel bills!!!!

Diesel is like gas, not everyone is a fan. A lot of people still think diesel equals slug!

Gas has as much dramas as petrol, so what that's life!

There's no 'right or wrong' answer, its what you want out of a car....

[DJM83]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

Because you'll eventually want power mods for your V8, and Liquid LPG Injection *IS* a (relatively cheap) power mod!!!

Regards,
Dave

My TE isnt the kind of car id convert to LPG. But even so i still wouldnt if it were any other V8, if i want to save money id buy a 4cyl.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by Melz

I don't give two hoots about 'power' out of my dedicated gas Falcon to a straight petrol Falcon. I use it because I save $120 average a week on fuel bills!!!!

Diesel is like gas, not everyone is a fan. A lot of people still think diesel equals slug!

There you go .... hit that one on the head. 95% of those on gas don't care about power loss. Its all about transport and how cheap it is to get there. If power was so important, Toyotas wouldn't be so plentyful.

I hated Diesel in the family car as I always had to go and fill it. After the Mrs touched a Deisel pump once she would never do it again.



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[deesun]

What I can't believe is that some people think I should be afraid because it might EXPLODE. KABOOOOOOOMMMMMMM. : :