Motor Sept 2005 - BFYB - Another FPV failure!

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

With respect i totally dissagree, your definition of "performance" would only be satisfied by a GT3 Porche or CSL M3...
The GT IS Clearly a performance vehicle, just not on the same scales as others, but it DOES forfill a place in the market for a performance FAMILY car, which is what it is, nothing more, nothing less, and its built to a price point that makes it excellent value compared to the Porche or BMW..

Thats fine were all entitled to our own opinnion here. You see what i here too often is how well the FPVs handle compared to HSV but then complain when they are beaten by a HSV.

Im sure HSV will gain a lot of weight too but i doubt it would be higher than FPV because they want to keep the "Race Relations" theme happening.

Look in my opinion both are fine examples of fast cars and in the end its what the individual wants.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by MITCHAY

Thats fine were all entitled to our own opinnion here. You see what i here too often is how well the FPVs handle compared to HSV but then complain when they are beaten by a HSV.

Im sure HSV will gain a lot of weight too but i doubt it would be higher than FPV because they want to keep the "Race Relations" theme happening.

Look in my opinion both are fine examples of fast cars and in the end its what the individual wants.

See thats the problem with most people who bag FPV, Dont just listen to others!
I made a point of driving 5 different vehicles (T3, XR8, GT, SS ,Clubsport) and decided the BA Ford product was a better overal performance product for my needs!
When you're old enough get your bum into both, have a drive and form an opinion based on what satisfys your needs, you might be very pleasantly surprised how good the GT is after all. :voldar02:

[MITCHAY]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Dont just listen to others, when you're old enough get your bum into both, have a drive and form an opinion based on what satisfys your needs, you might be very pleasantly surprised how good the GT is after all. :voldar02:

Im sure it would be a good car but as i dont have the need for a big car at the moment ill stick to smaller ones. I was thinkn though maybe some carbon fibre in the design could help out a bit. Strong and light its a good material.

[Dave_au]

Forgetting about the philosophy stuff for a second here, the whole aim of 'bang for your buck' is what car gives the best performance, as determined by track figures, as compared to their dollar value. The conclusion that Motor gave was not very appealing for FPV, with high criticisms towards corner handing and weight, and generally gave the impression that the HSVs were better on the day.

I think most of the criticism in this thread on FPV is the expectation that FPV should be up to the standards of HSV, which, it would appear since the inception of FPV, isn't exactly the case.

Forgetting all the warm and fuzzy PR philosophy from the FPV website, we need to look at the industry FPV is operating in, its long term aims and its customer base, and like it or not, it's competitor is, has and always been HSV.

So what does HSV do that FPV doesn't do, or what limitations are placed on FPV that make the task seem so much harder.I think a lot of the reason why HSV seem to have performed better in these tests are due to:

1. Weight
2. Handing
3. Engine performance

The first point admittedly is hard to correct, the second and third is what needs to happen now, so fingers crossed for the Sydney motor show.

[MITCHAY]

Well written post Dave_au and i think it sums it up quite well.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Forgetting about the philosophy stuff for a second here, the whole aim of 'bang for your buck' is what car gives the best performance, as determined by track figures, as compared to their dollar value. The conclusion that Motor gave was not very appealing for FPV, with high criticisms towards corner handing and weight, and generally gave the impression that the HSVs were better on the day.

I think most of the criticism in this thread on FPV is the expectation that FPV should be up to the standards of HSV, which, it would appear since the inception of FPV, isn't exactly the case.

Forgetting all the warm and fuzzy PR philosophy from the FPV website, we need to look at the industry FPV is operating in, its long term aims and its customer base, and like it or not, it's competitor is, has and always been HSV.

So what does HSV do that FPV doesn't do, or what limitations are placed on FPV that make the task seem so much harder.I think a lot of the reason why HSV seem to have performed better in these tests are due to:

1. Weight
2. Handing
3. Engine performance

The first point admittedly is hard to correct, the second and third is what needs to happen now, so fingers crossed for the Sydney motor show.

You are right, but just to add to your list of things that make it easier for HSV and harder for FPV is this....

Globalisation. Holden/HSV have benefited from a chassis that has been largely provided for them and their engines are a global product. From a cost point of view for Holden, this is a huge advantage and one that shouldn't be overlooked.

Ford/FPV are further detached from the globalisation product line up until now, so it's going to take time to refine and develop these new products (ie. control blade IRS and BOSS motors, arguably some of the most important factors relating to performance.

Now, what some see as a benefit to Holden (being lighter) can also be seen as a negative when compared to the safety standards Ford Australia CHOSE to implement in BA, which is why it's heavier, while Orion shouldn't get any heavier, VE will. BA has a far stiffer chassis than Holdens effort and has a higher crash certification than Holden at 80K's rear impact.

It's a slow process when it comes to refinement of the various models, especially for a company in Ford Australia's position, you can't have it all at once, instantly, it will come slowly, that's just how it is.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by JEM

You are right, but just to add to your list of things that make it easier for HSV and harder for FPV is this....

Globalisation. Holden/HSV have benefited from a chassis that has been largely provided for them and their engines are a global product. From a cost point of view for Holden, this is a huge advantage and one that shouldn't be overlooked.

Ford/FPV are further detached from the globalisation product line up until now, so it's going to take time to refine and develop these new products (ie. control blade IRS and BOSS motors, arguably some of the most important factors relating to performance.

Now, what some see as a benefit to Holden (being lighter) can also be seen as a negative when compared to the safety standards Ford Australia CHOSE to implement in BA, which is why it's heavier, while Orion shouldn't get any heavier, VE will. BA has a far stiffer chassis than Holdens effort and has a higher crash certification than Holden at 80K's rear impact.

It's a slow process when it comes to refinement of the various models, especially for a company in Ford Australia's position, you can't have it all at once, instantly, it will come slowly, that's just how it is.

Spot on, the weight issue that people seem to hang their hat on is largely due to Safety standards that the BA complies with and Holden doesn't, watch them add the KG's to comply.
Look at the ultra safe Merc E55 etc, all over 1820 kgs, same as or heavier than the GT...
Power isnt an issue for the BA, its got tonnes, but as you point out refinement and improvement takes time and patience...
Ford are renowned for taking slow cautious but forward steps.

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Spot on, the weight issue that people seem to hang their hat on is largely due to Safety standards that the BA complies with and Holden doesn't, watch them add the KG's to comply.
Look at the ultra safe Merc E55 etc, all over 1820 kgs, same as or heavier than the GT...
Power isnt an issue for the BA, its got tonnes, but as you point out refinement and improvement takes time and patience...
Ford are renowned for taking slow cautious but forward steps.

yep. Now i could tell you some things about Holden and their development of VE where they have chosen to jeapordise occupant safety in the event of a crash, in the name of being better in another area, someting Ford have not chosen to do in this area!

But i'm sure it will be looked at as being an advantage to Holden while the safety aspect is overlooked. It seems unfortunately, to be always the way.

[CSV_LS1]

Originally Posted by Dave_au

Didn't Cameron McConville do it last year - with an equally dismal result for ford? I think we put it down to Holden bias last year.

In all seriousness I'm afraid to say that being a track weapon isn't really FPVs forte, and there is no quick fix for the biggest problem (the weight!)

Maybe steven richards should do it next year cause he doesn't care who he drives for :

[flappist]

Reality guys, you seem to be getting bitter and twisted because a few journos bagged Fords.
Like you have never heard anyone do that before.
Remember another group of journos once picked the Leyland P76 (and the Camira) as the best cars in the country.
Yet another journo is mostly responsible for the demise of the Phase4 GTHO and sundry.

Build a bridge. They don't like the FPVs, they do like the WRX. A mate of mine has a new pretty blue WRX and I borrowed it the other day just to see what I was missing with my absolutely terrible F6. After I shoehorned myself into the plastic seat and blasted up the road for a bit I have come to 2 conclusions.
1) They go and handle great
2) they left me like a 007 martini, shaken but not stirred.

As a second car or if I lived in the city and used mostly public transport it would be great.
As a primary car (my May 05 F6 now has over 10,000km) I could not afford the chiropractic or physio bills.

But then maybe my "bang for buck" ideology differs from theirs.....

All in all, I agree that based on the testing methodology and parameters used the shown results were consistant and fair.

[SpoolMan]

Hi Tony, i agree with what you say the ''results were consistent and fair'' but that don't make FPV a failure like some posters are saying, just because the little ricer beat it around a corner at 100 plus k's.
End of the day the public voted with there wallets what sort of Performance street cars they want..
.
Guess some will always love there there sun-white..

[rick69]

Originally Posted by JEM

yep. Now i could tell you some things about Holden and their development of VE where they have chosen to jeapordise occupant safety in the event of a crash, in the name of being better in another area, someting Ford have not chosen to do in this area!

Go ahead and tell us then...

[MrSparkle]

Originally Posted by XRFPV8

Hi Tony, i agree with what you say the ''results were consistent and fair'' but that don't make FPV a failure like some posters are saying, just because the little ricer beat it around a corner at 100 plus k's.
End of the day the public voted with there wallets what sort of Performance street cars they want..
.
Guess some will always love there there sun-white..

Much like some will always lap up what Ford/FPV deliver without ever wanting more, or facing up to proven inadequacies. Blind zealotry can be such a comfortable place for a fanatic! : sleep:

Geez, I just wish I worked for people like some of you guys, so damn easy to please! Slap a badge on, lose against the competition, and shift the focus off the main marketed objective of the company! Where do I sign up! :

Hmm, clearly you are right though - it looks like my PCOTY winning vehicle isn't really a "performance" car after all since it's not as "comfortable" on the road... time I started pricing LPG XT wagons and taught myself the real definition of performance. :

Well I'm over this whole discussion, there are some logical heads in here and some that just don't grasp it. Time to leave it to the buzzards! :

[SpoolMan]

Originally Posted by MrSparkle

Much like some will always lap up what Ford/FPV deliver without ever wanting more, or facing up to proven inadequacies. Blind zealotry can be such a comfortable place for a fanatic! : sleep:

Geez, I just wish I worked for people like some of you guys, so damn easy to please! Slap a badge on, lose against the competition, and shift the focus off the main marketed objective of the company! Where do I sign up! :

Hmm, clearly you are right though - it looks like my PCOTY winning vehicle isn't really a "performance" car after all since it's not as "comfortable" on the road... time I started pricing LPG XT wagons and taught myself the real definition of performance. :

Well I'm over this whole discussion, there are some logical heads in here and some that just don't grasp it. Time to leave it to the buzzards! :

Not everyone will ever agree on everything, so just because some don't agree with you, that don't mean they don't have a logical head.
its just different choice and different views in what they want and expect from FPV or a any car.
if that makes me a buzzard will so be it, i will be placing an order with my Ford Dealer shortly. :
we all enjoy driving a different style of car. _2:

[GT0193]

Well at the end of the day I can tell you my experience with MY FPV GT. Own one or Drive one for a while and then lets hear about your experiences.

Everytime I get out of the car I am thinking of the next time that I will jump back in the seat and drive it. The look of the car and stance on the road (not the track!)...the other crowd doesn't even come close.

The rush this car gives you on every acceleration and turn...well it satisfies my needs and puts a smile on my face. By the numbers that they are selling...they are satisfying others as well.

The rest of the track statistics mean jack... If I want really fast times on the track...I would invest in some mods and that would be it.

Reality...GT any day! :sm_headba _2:

[JPFS1]

Originally Posted by rick69

Go ahead and tell us then...

You have a PM.

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by JEM

You have a PM.

A lot more gracious and forthcoming that you needed be given the tone of the request.

Thanks JEM

[Firefox7]

[QUOTE=sbutler]OH dear, I can see were this will end up...[/QUOTE

[Firefox7]

[QUOTE=Firefox7]

Originally Posted by sbutler

OH dear, I can see were this will end up...[/QUOTE

Yep...the usuals... ****ing in each others pockets & making lots of excuses. Why.....lets organise a wakefield day,....BA-GT vs T3......any takers.????


Cheers.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by Firefox7

Yep...the usuals... ****ing in each others pockets & making lots of excuses. Why.....lets organise a wakefield day,....BA-GT vs T3......any takers.????


Cheers.

Oh well Fox the T3 wasn't that crash hot.The BA GT was a little better, so we shall wait for the BF mate best of both worlds.GET OVER it.I have an idea i might be venturing down to Bathurst for the Muscle car Production event.Maybe we could meet up there.Conrod is a long road. out:

[XA-Coupe]

yaaaawn, that's the LAST we will hear about the stupid T3 Vs BA crap ... isn't it ?

[Eaturbo]

Why dont FPV go back to using Koni shocks and use the Koni adjustable shocks so you can have soft ride on the way to the track and better handling at the track

[Citric GT]

Originally Posted by Eaturbo

Why dont FPV go back to using Koni shocks and use the Koni adjustable shocks so you can have soft ride on the way to the track and better handling at the track

Yeah, the T3s had them and Whiteline suspension reckon the biggest problem with the BAs handling is cheap shocks.

[HEMI POWER]

Originally Posted by XA Coupe

yaaaawn, that's the LAST we will hear about the stupid T3 Vs BA crap ... isn't it ?

Now it's the BF V BA . : since the Butler will buy a BA GT now since prices have dropped.

[XA-Coupe]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

Now it's the BF V BA . : since the Butler will buy a BA GT now since prices have dropped.

Naughty .. shoosh out:

[RED_EL_XR8]

Originally Posted by FPVGT

Now it's the BF V BA . : since the Butler will buy a BA GT now since prices have dropped.

Please make it end !!!

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Citric XR6

Yeah, the T3s had them and Whiteline suspension reckon the biggest problem with the BAs handling is cheap shocks.

Im sure if it bothers someone that much they'll just buy a set, geez.. it isnt rocket science...
Something tells me not too many people will care though.
Just like if you want more power, just get some bolt on bits for a couple of $K and walla, extra 40KW's. :

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by lizardmech

They need a proper sports model FPV as well as the luxury GT and GT-P. It could have a basic interior but with the alloy block, light weight wheels, better suspension, good brakes and some aluminium panels for the boot and bonnet. Of course this will never happen because ford australia never seem interested in competing with other brands so ill probably end up going from my AU xr8 to a VY SS.

I think that would be a great car, but disagree as to your explanation as to why it wont happen. Its simple economics. Not enough people would pay a hefty premium over a GTP for a stripped out racer, to make it worth while taking limited R&D resources from a mainstream product they have now to a speciality product that will appeal to a precious few with the cash and interest to buy one.

If making you feel an affinity for the brand and the product, helps to promote and sell cars, they will do it, but only to the extent that a business case holds up and validates that effort. At the end of the day Ford & FPV is a business.

Regards,
Daniel

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

I think that would be a great car, but disagree as to your explanation as to why it wont happen. Its simple economics. Not enough people would pay a hefty premium over a GTP for a stripped out racer, to make it worth while taking limited R&D resources from a mainstream product they have now to a speciality product that will appeal to a precious few with the cash and interest to buy one.

If making you feel an affinity for the brand and the product, helps to promote and sell cars, they will do it, but only to the extent that a business case holds up and validates that effort. At the end of the day Ford & FPV is a business.

Regards,
Daniel

Spot on!

[XR_Strider_GuY]

I have read this thread from start to finish and I feel i have to say my 2c (plus 10% gst and fuel excise).

At the end of the day its all down to development costs. For a totally new model (EL-AU) Ford spent $750m and I believe for the BA Ford spent $500m. Reality of that budget is very cheap compared to say the development cost of a 3 series BMW which i think was in the reigns of $2-3 billion. So asking FPV to churn out the same level of engineering as AMG or BMW M division is unrealistic.

However, I will have to agree with Mr Sparkles here. What we are talking about and why where all here is that we have an interest in "Performance" Fords and in this case it's FPV thats at the pinacle of Performance in the Falcon development.

Fact of the matter is lap times, 0-100km/h and 1/4miles are all measurements of this topic "Performace". I fail to see how many of you think that the Motor and Wheels magazines are junk reading and not real. I challenge anyone to do a test like Wheels and Motor with 20+ cars and take them through their paces. Yes i will agree that not all cars are equal, but manufactures who enter in BYFB know full well that their cars will be measured on "performance" and it's up to them to provide a fit car.

So to conclude, the FPV cars are down in cornering speed is fact that they will need to improve this on their next models, no if no buts. Considering Holden can perform quicker (being it's arch rival) proves this even more that FPV have abit of home work to do in this department. And please don't say that i don't like FPV's. If i had the money right now a GT will be in garage. And to the people who say 1-2km per hour is no big deal, well i'll put this to you. A 13 second car is not much different to a 15 sec car hmmm, i don't think so.