Australian Drivers Are Ignoring LPG

[RG]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Perhaps you should have a good look, and also consider all the surrounding factors such as international politics and price which will all come to bear. The owners of gas cars will have the last laugh.

I have had a good look, the future isn't as bleak as some would have us believe.

[GT]

Originally Posted by RG

You obviously are a victim of the scare tactics telling you that the world is going to end / the sky is falling / global warming / global cooling / we are about to run out of oil and other such rubbish.

Maybe have a look into how much oil is left, a little research and then come back here. I'm quite sure you will find that there is a bit more oil than you think.

While there is much propaganda with the issues you raised, the bigger issue is the enormous lift in oil products being consumed which will escalate the price and eventually run out or get to less sustainable levels. The reason for this is countries like India, China, the former USSR States are all 'new' consumers with great economies, large populations, plenty of disposable income and a hunger for cars and products that we have enjoyed for many years. They also have no regard for the environment and having lived in many of these countries for some years with the oil industry, I have seen it first hand.

LPG is a cheap form of energy and we need to start looking at how this country can self-sustain our thirst for fossil fuels. The other countries enormous fuel appetite WILL drive up the price and I will be alongside you wincing at the petrol pump in my big V8 (and still with a smile on my face!).

I drove an LPG dedicated Falcon in my last job and it was great. Went like a cut cat and I got over 600kms to a tank at a cost of around $50 (at that time). I would happily have one in the garage as a daily driver alongside the GT.

Cheers
Gaela

[Stoney!]

Originally Posted by Mr Hardware

And if you added LPG Fumigation to that, it'd go quicker, the turbo spin up sooner and you'd get better economy and less sooting. LPG IS MAGIC

The Economy and performance of small capacity turbo's (including VW's 'magic' Twin charger engine) and Turbo Diesel is sufficient enough without giving up my spare wheel or boot space thanks.

You might wanna replace economy, with value, cause I certainly wouldn't get the same distance on a tank of LPG compared to similar sized tank of diesel.

Fuels all have their pro's and Con's.... I suppose it doens't help that a lot of manufacturers don't offer it from the factory, and its something that is generally aftermarket.

I and I'm sure other people fear that taking your car back to your manufacturer for warranty work might be a bit harder cause things could be blamed on the LPG system, either when it is or isn't. The biggest problem here is either manufacturer faults being covered up. That or just the fact that as a common car driver and not knowing what might be wrong, you can't just take the golf back to VW and say fix it, you may need to then take it back the the conversion place. Then it just becomes annoying.

Some companies may even void you warranty, and I think VW is one of these, yet on the same table, VW tell their driver not to you bio-diesel or home made bio-diesel but no case yet has seen warranty voided for this.

I wanna buy a car, not have to get anything fitted aftermarket, take it back to the one place for warranty repairs without feer of them saying no, with both power and economy, so I bought the twin charger golf!

And I think a lot of other people buying diesels or small capacity turbos are seeing it this way also. The 1.4 turbo headed for the Holden Cruze will only make it more popular still.

Stoney!

[Mr Hardware]

Yeah Stoney you might want to look into what LPG Fumigation really is, because a lot of the points you make are moot in terms of LPG Fumigation for diesels.

Also, finally a flappist post with some acutal information and value and not just idle trolling! A lot of the points you make are right flappist, people do think that, no matter how inherently flawed their judgement is. A lot of them concentrate on the four LPG myths i posted on page 1 also.

[Stoney!]

I know what it is, I just didn't realise that's what you were talking about as I've never heard it being called that before...

However, just another expensive and complex add on that takes up space and can affect a new car warrant or warranty repairs. No way I would put this on a new car, no way.

My above points still stand In LPG v's Small capacity petrol and Turbo diesel.

Stoney!

[new2ford]

Thanks GTGTP for injecting some sense.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...0803-e6is.html

[RG]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Thanks GTGTP for injecting some sense.

http://news.smh.com.au/breaking-news...0803-e6is.html

Maybe try something other than a media outlet known for its sensationalistic attempts at journalism.

[Paxton]

Originally Posted by RG

Maybe try something other than a media outlet known for its sensationalistic attempts at journalism.

Are you sure you don't mean the Daily Telegraph there Russ?

The SMH is generally pretty Highly Regarded for journalism in Sydney.

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by RG

Maybe try something other than a media outlet known for its sensationalistic attempts at journalism.

"Copyright AFP or Agence France-Presse 2006
This story is sourced direct from an overseas news agency as an additional service to readers. Spelling follows North American usage, along with foreign currency and measurement units."

Look we'll call it quits for now if you prefer denial. We'll raise the subject again in 5 years (beside the gas pump LOL)!

[russellw]

Originally Posted by RG

Maybe try something other than a media outlet known for its sensationalistic attempts at journalism.

Ok. Let's try:

1. The Oil and Gas Journal (January 2009) which estimates oil reserves at about 1,030 billion barrels.

2. The IEA states current annual consumption at 27 billion barrels per annum with an expected increase in demand from the developing economies of China, India and the Eastern bloc that will see that figure top 40 billion by 2014.

3. On those figures the worst case scenario is 30 years of known recoverable reserves and at the best case (assuming only a 3% annual increase) 40 odd years.

As these reserves diminish and the competition for the remaining supply increases we can expect to see sharp rises in the global pricing of oil and oil based products. If you expect anything less then you are living in a fools paradise.

Undoubtedly there will be other currently marginal reserves that will become economically viable as well as alternate means for producing oil from shale, Canadian tar as well as more blending with other combustible products that aren't fossil based - but these are shorter term solutions that won't solve the longer term issues.

Frankly it doesn't worry me that much - I'm at an age in life where the current reserves will most likely see me out but if the ostrich with the head in the sand mentality displayed by some here about the problem is indicative of the future then I can only say that I am glad I won't be around to hear the wailing and weeping.

It will be a fool who ignores the alternatives available whatever they may end up being.

Russ

[new2ford]

Phew the cavalry to the rescue, thanks Russ!

All I want to do is see the gas debate take place in a reasoned context. This is a Ford Aus forum and one of Ford Aus' greatest strengths since the 1990s has been its gas development - it deserves a better reward for that, and both the market and the Rudd govt are being extremely stupid about it. I just hope Ford doesn't give up on it, or go under as it loses its market share before its work is vindicated. Toyota is certainly offering bugger all as an alternative.

Support Ford's gas cars and make a lot of political noise about it - don't sink down to petty short-sighted gas vs petrol debate.

[RG]

Originally Posted by new2ford

Phew the cavalry to the rescue, thanks Russ!

All I want to do is see the gas debate take place in a reasoned context. This is a Ford Aus forum and one of Ford Aus' greatest strengths since the 1990s has been its gas development - it deserves a better reward for that, and both the market and the Rudd govt are being extremely stupid about it. I just hope Ford doesn't give up on it, or go under as it loses its market share before its work is vindicated. Toyota is certainly offering bugger all as an alternative.

Support Ford's gas cars and make a lot of political noise about it - don't sink down to petty short-sighted gas vs petrol debate.

Hang on a minute, you were talking 5-10 years. Russ has just shown figures that show that there is 30-40 years remaining provided no new fields are found. I'm sure that in the next 30 odd years an alternative that is more viable than LPG will be found.

[new2ford]

RG you need to read and absorb the para after Russ' point 3. I doubt 30 years as well but go ahead, be an optimist.

Like I said, you all need to be supporting Ford's work with gas.

[RG]

Originally Posted by new2ford

RG you need to read and absorb the para after Russ' point 3. I doubt 30 years as well but go ahead, be an optimist.

Like I said, you all need to be supporting Ford's work with gas.

Hey, the more people that use gas the better it is for those of us that use petrol. Remember the same experts that write about the oil fields drying up in a few years are the same experts that said we'd be paying $2+ a litre for petrol by now.

Then you have finds like this HERE, it isn't much but it shows that there is still oil out there to find. Have a read of that, they also show a few other recent major finds. Then you have research such as THIS. You could also look at the major find in Brazil that could hold up to 8b barrels.

Remember there are two side to each and every argument and always more than one view on an issue. Just because someone doesn't totally agree with you does not make them wrong.

[gooseboy78]

i thought i would comment about the lpg or not. americans are only just finding about peformance benefits of propane (lpg) as the propane burns at avgas level 110 ron vs 91 ron. kids "JUST SAY NO" to diesel

[PepeLePew]

While my smileys may suffer for taking an negative view to posts from the forum gods, this is a reasonably good thread with some quality posts on topic. Can we not turn it into a debate about whether Aussies have their heads up their passages or not regarding peak oil? Its a done to death topic, no one KNOWS enough to answer the question, "peak oil you are found not guilty by reason of reasonable doubt".

What it does raise is a fair question in context of the topic, are Australians accepting of a NEED for alternative fuels or are they just price/rebate driven to them...???

Diesel seems to find acceptance regardless of its recently soaring and returning price tag, and the premium on purchase. Does this say manufacturers offerings change consume sentiment? If so, will increasing numbers of 'new tech' factory LPG offerings, offering similar power and 'near petrol' economy, driveable as a showroom demo, change the publics sentiment? E-Gas seems to sell well enough, but what proportion of that is to consumers?

[Mr Hardware]

kids "JUST SAY NO" to diesel

Amen brother

[flappist]

Originally Posted by PepeLePew

While my smileys may suffer for taking an negative view to posts from the forum gods, this is a reasonably good thread with some quality posts on topic.

Your smilies should never suffer from taking a juxtaposed position from the glitterati or even general concensus.
The function of a forum is debate not sycophantism.
If you disagree with a point and support your argument with logic or evidence then you are acting correctly.

Red smilies are normally reserved for behavior that is purile, childish, unintelligent or vexatious.

Only moderators and above can issue red smilies and any mod who used red smilies as a form of revenge or punishment for purely disagreeing with their posts or position would draw the wrath of the admin team in a very short period of time.

[RG]

Originally Posted by flappist

Your smilies should never suffer from taking a juxtaposed position from the glitterati or even general concensus.
The function of a forum is debate not sycophantism.
If you disagree with a point and support your argument with logic or evidence then you are acting correctly.

Red smilies are normally reserved for behavior that is purile, childish, unintelligent or vexatious.

Only moderators and above can issue red smilies and any mod who used red smilies as a form of revenge or punishment for purely disagreeing with their posts or position would draw the wrath of the admin team in a very short period of time.

This is true, although off topic lol.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by RG

Hey, the more people that use gas the better it is for those of us that use petrol. Remember the same experts that write about the oil fields drying up in a few years are the same experts that said we'd be paying $2+ a litre for petrol by now.

The only reason we aren't paying $2/litre now is the slowing of the global economy which reduced the demand from the new power house nations - but if you think this is a long term solution then you will end up disappointed.

It doesn't actually matter whether it is 10, 20 or 50 years - the reality is that as it is a non renewable resource we WILL run out eventually. Now you can choose to take the stance that it will be the problem of future generations but it isn't going to go away as an issue just by ignoring it.

Remember there are two side to each and every argument and always more than one view on an issue. Just because someone doesn't totally agree with you does not make them wrong.

A point I seem to recall making recently.

Back to the topic at hand...

I said in my earlier post that the issues faced by the LPG industry fall into three categories which basically amounted to packaging, market perception and user friendliness. As one of the leading manufacturers of DLPG vehicles FoA needs to take the lead in these three areas rather than merely being a follower.

To some extent their development and marketing of the DLPG range is to their credit but it perhaps doesn't go far enough to addressing those fundamental issues.

What's wrong with looking at some of the toroidal tank options or alternate mounting locations to alleviate packaging concerns?

Why, instead of the coming Diesel Territory aren't we seeing a DLPG option? (I know the answer to that question so it's a rhetorical one at best).

The industry as a whole needs to get behind public awareness campaigns that aren't just based around the "it'll save you a few bucks" routine that seems to be de rigeur in the current marketing of LPG.

What's also wrong with looking at the aromatic currently added to make it detectable? Sure it's effective in allowing you to identify it but it's hardly the most pleasant thing when being burnt.

I could go on but as these are wider issues than the original poster was asking about they perhaps are more suited to an alternate discussion medium.

We currently produce all of our LPG requirements and indeed we export more than half of our production as there isn't sufficient local demand. Current reserves are sufficient for more than 60 years even allowing for (a rather optimisitic) 8% annual growth rate in our use and about 80% of the LPG we do use is used in vehicles.

Let's not stop there. We have massive reserves of natural gas which can be used in the form of CNG/LNG - current reserves are around the 144 trillion cubic feet mark and we are currently using about 1.12 tcf per annum (60% of which is exported). Sure, there is no supporting infrastructure to support the use of this currently but it remains another viable alternative.

I reiterate my earlier statement - if we fail to consider all of the available alternatives in favour of the blinkered approach then it will be to our own deteriment in the longer term.

If this thread has shown nothing else, it has shown that there are people here who have adopted alternatives to petrol as a means of meeting their individual needs and while each of these has merits and drawbacks they will all form a part of the future landscape in this country. I don't profess to know what the absolute solution is - even the experts don't agree on that but I do know that each of the currently available technologies is doing their part in extending the life of the internal combustion engine that we all rely on and that has to be a good thing.

Cheers
Russ

[RG]

I'm glad you edited that Russ as there was a line there that wasn't very fair.

LPG is currently the only viable option (apart from diesel) to petrol atm, however I am quite sure that before we run out of oil stocks a better more viable option to both will be found. I understand and know that oil is not in a never ending supply, no where have I said that it is. I just don't believe that in the long term investing heavily in LPG is the answer as there has to be a better option out there, what that is I don't know. Even E85 I see as a better option and the use of that would greatly extend the life of oil fields.

[Road_Warrior]

Originally Posted by RG

I just don't believe that in the long term investing heavily in LPG is the answer

Well - the investment and the R&D has already been done over the past 30 odd years - what we're seeing now with new systems is the result of more interest, investment and consumer demand for an alternative to petrol.

The LPG industry isn't simply going to quietly walk away from years of work and investment because of an old-fashioned stigma or old wives tales. It will work to overcome them. Introducing systems like LI LPG that can provide equal performance to petrol is the beginning, not the end - I think that there is still much more to come for LPG.

[4Vman]

The problem with LPG is not the fuel itself but its the way its used, or more to the point the relatively primitive application methods.
Its "earnt" a reputation over many years as a "poor" performer with technical issues, that reputation won't dissapear quickly or easily..
Until someone delivers "Petrol" performance without compromising luggage capacity and a higher purchase price in a production vehicle it will be seen as a "bandaid" fuel...
Id love to see Ford offer Direct injection gas XR6T or XR8, because ive come to the conclusion we NEED lpg to become more viable, and more to the point more "cool"...

[RG]

Originally Posted by Road_Warrior

Well - the investment and the R&D has already been done over the past 30 odd years - what we're seeing now with new systems is the result of more interest, investment and consumer demand for an alternative to petrol.

The LPG industry isn't simply going to quietly walk away from years of work and investment because of an old-fashioned stigma or old wives tales. It will work to overcome them. Introducing systems like LI LPG that can provide equal performance to petrol is the beginning, not the end - I think that there is still much more to come for LPG.

I'm sure it isn't the end, well I'd bloody hope not anyway lol. There are plenty out there who choose to not run LPG for a wide variety of reasons, I am one of those people. Just the same as the only diesel I would ever buy would be a 4x4 (a proper one). E85 on the other hand I would be more than happy to run.

[russellw]

Originally Posted by RG

I'm glad you edited that Russ as there was a line there that wasn't very fair.

It was edited in the interests of peace rather than fairness. The statement was accurate given recent history. I was happy to leave it at the edit but if you want to call me out on it then be prepared for the outcome.

Russ

[RG]

Originally Posted by russellw

It was edited in the interests of peace rather than fairness. The statement was accurate given recent history. I was happy to leave it at the edit but if you want to call me out on it then be prepared for the outcome.

Russ

This may be better left to PM/MSN don't you think?

[GT]

Originally Posted by RG

There are plenty out there who choose to not run LPG for a wide variety of reasons, I am one of those people.

Not liking something is not a sound reason for not considering it a very viable option.

The thread is about why LPG is not embraced by Australia - is it because of ignorance? I have supported my personal experience (not unsupported opinion) with a reasoned argument and if you want your view to be taken seriously then it has to be more than a petulant "I don't like it".

Gaela

[Polyal]

Habits and stereotypes are very hard to change, more so when culture is involved.

But if people can see the cost save with a new LPI car vs petrol then there is no reason other than poor education that someone would purchase the latter. And if they do good luck to them. All Ford needs is a sorted system, good marketing (gulp) and a government who will lead the way (double gulp!).

At the end of the day the tech no a million miles past the point where all the bad press comes from, also funny how its predominantly the previous/older (im trying to be PC) generations who are skeptical....

Either way having options is the key.

I still remember people taking the mikey out of diesel cars, and they are selling well with very little financial gain in most cases.

[RG]

Originally Posted by GTGTP

Not liking something is not a sound reason for not considering it a very viable option.

The thread is about why LPG is not embraced by Australia - is it because of ignorance? I have supported my personal experience (not unsupported opinion) with a reasoned argument and if you want your view to be taken seriously then it has to be more than a petulant "I don't like it".

Gaela

Of course it's a sound reason, it's a choice and anyone is able to make a choice on such things. That's the beauty of living in relatively free and democratic country.

Nothing to do with ignorance, some people just choose not to like/want LPG and there is nothing wrong with that. Just the same as there is nothing wrong with people wanting to use LPG and the same goes for people using diesel too.

[kinksta]

i am one of the gas crew, and i'm glad. i do a helluva lot of driving each week and it has shown the savings already. yes you lose abit power, but flick a switch and i'm back on premium, and my exhaust crackle is back.