The demise of manual transmissions? - Page 4

wrongwaynorris · 19-11-2010, 05:20 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

dear god why on earth would drive a car with that many k's on it? the thing would be a death trap. i always sell my cars when they hit 50000km which takes me about 5-7 years.

100,000 K's takes me less than a year and a half . As for being a death trap you'd better never get in a taxi then . there was not a thing wrong with the Cortina when we sold it and the guy who bought it still drives it around today . mercedes give you a badge for every 100,000 over half a million , go to europe and you'll seee plenty of them .

flappist · 19-11-2010, 05:34 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by glavas

cabs are death traps

never been in a bus

i was on a train once when i was a kid.

i drive about 170km a week. i live near work and i dont do anything in my spare time.

Taxi and bus crashes......so uncommon that they make national news.

Low time cars driven by uncurrent drivers on the other hand.........

Franco Cozzo · 19-11-2010, 05:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

No you can't.

The engine computers need a battery to to boot up. You will have no spark nor fuel.

We did with Dad's car, its a 2003 Mazda 323. I don't know about the very latest of cars but we managed to roll start it when the battery didn't have enough juice to crank the car, all it would do was sound the alarm for 2 or 3 seconds then die when you tried to start it. Battery wasn't dead flat, but flat enough it wouldn't even try to crank, turn the key, alarm, thats it.

tweeked · 19-11-2010, 05:52 PM

Autos have their place. The one in my Toyota Camry is very good. It is so good, like the rest of the car that I sometimes forget about the car even while i'm driving it.

Now my GT with over 300rwkw, manual, big exhaust and BPR cold air intake ,windows down, rock wall on one side of the road, sharp corner coming up, heel and toe downshift with a perfectly judged blip of the throttle, feeding power back on out of the corner............

You will never, ever experience something like that in an auto.

Or even in most bedrooms...........

GreenR · 19-11-2010, 06:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

Now my GT with over 300rwkw, manual, big exhaust and BPR cold air intake ,windows down, rock wall on one side of the road, sharp corner coming up, heel and toe downshift with a perfectly judged blip of the throttle, feeding power back on out of the corner............

You will never, ever experience something like that in an auto.

Or even in most bedrooms...........

Well said

Danny · 19-11-2010, 07:58 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by flappist

No you can't.

The engine computers need a battery to to boot up. You will have no spark nor fuel.

Yeah, Flappist, I started the Renault driving it down the driveway when it's battery died. Was absolutely fine, no backfire, no judder, just let out the clutch in 3rd gear at the right rolling speed and it was on.

2006 Model 182. Unless you are talking about the super new stuff with can buses and all that.

Crazy Dazz · 22-11-2010, 02:42 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Grippy

Exactly right, auto's are only going to get better as well.

Nomatter how good an auto gets, it will never know what sought of a mood I’m in, what my intentions are, what the other drivers are doing, or what the road conditions ahead are.
I don’t want a gearbox to “learn my driving habits,” I want it to do what I tell it.
There’s not much point in these semi-auto boxes that can change gears in a nanosecond, when the driver’s input is overridden by the computer.
With a manual, you put it in 2nd, it stays in 2nd. Come back in 6 months, and it will still be in 2nd. Select 2nd in a “Sports Automatic” and it’s a chook raffle to see what gear it’s in when you plant your foot.

kpcart · 22-11-2010, 06:57 AM

good ridence to the manuals. its a big "fake" artform that motor journalists created and car enthusiast copied their line, its a big conspiracy to make some people look like more of a "driver" then others, when infact its just bs.

Some get this perplexion of "im a a better driver because i drive manual", because they have fallen into the engineering cycle, where a manual version of a car always had one more gear then their inferior auto counterpart. this was common in the 80s and 90s, but now, many autos are actually faster then manual boxes.

F1 had fully automatic cars in 2002 as it was the fastest way around a race track, so for "pure" racers, auto is the best option.

Who in their right mind would actually want to change gears manually, if the car can do the job for you and make your drive luxurious?

ive always thought that the drivers who think they are more 'pure" drivers because they change gears maually are just snobs who believe in a made up fantasy. and many of them think they are reminiscent to "racing car drivers" yet semi automatic has been the fastest way in motorsport for over 25 years.

Bad Bird · 22-11-2010, 08:49 AM

I'd say that semi-automatics are at least as similar to manuals as they are to automatics. In most comparos, manual versions are almost always faster around a track.

kinksta · 22-11-2010, 10:23 AM

well said kpcart. driving a manual is like going back to the typewriter in my opinion. auto's FTW. hehe, wait for the manual lovers fire up haha.

tweeked- My car is automatic, and I can go around corners too!!!

GreenR · 22-11-2010, 10:53 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

Some get this perplexion of "im a a better driver because i drive manual", because they have fallen into the engineering cycle,

F1 had fully automatic cars in 2002 as it was the fastest way around a race track, so for "pure" racers, auto is the best option.

Who in their right mind would actually want to change gears manually, if the car can do the job for you and make your drive luxurious?

I think it is not so much "I'm a better driver because I drive manual" but more I decided not to take the lazy option and learn to drive a manual . Because lets face it you can give any person an auto license and put them in an auto car and yell mush.

F1 cars use semi auto transmissions that still have a clutch? and is pure meant to mean?

And by luxurious do you mean easier and lazier? I for one like being in a direct control of the cars gearing and speed. Sometimes I have to push my foot on he accelerator twice and play around for a second for the auto to go into the gear I want

Bad Bird · 22-11-2010, 11:11 AM

A pure automatic (not a semi-manual, as I'll now call them) will always be reactive, whereas a manual is proactive. I can't see that being overcome very easily.

tweeked · 22-11-2010, 11:45 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by kpcart

Who in their right mind would actually want to change gears manually, if the car can do the job for you and make your drive luxurious?

ive always thought that the drivers who think they are more 'pure" drivers because they change gears maually are just snobs who believe in a made up fantasy. and many of them think they are reminiscent to "racing car drivers" yet semi automatic has been the fastest way in motorsport for over 25 years.

So you already have radar cruise control, auto parking, we are not far away from taking your seat an just sitting there and the car does the work. That is not driving, you are just another passenger.

Like it or lump it, it takes more skill to drive a manual properly. Both have there place. I have an economical auto to use a pure transport. But when I want to DRIVE, i take my manual. Im not looking for luxury - i'm looking for enjoyment. I have a couch that has luxury.

pottery beige · 22-11-2010, 11:57 AM

you cant drop big rollback smokey fishhooks in autos you will stuff them up...... manuals rock!!..

Zero_PSI · 22-11-2010, 12:17 PM

I'm an auto man. Had plenty of manuals but...Auto is just a better feeling.

xy500 · 22-11-2010, 12:43 PM

autos are for people that aren't into cars, face it you auto lovers. if you actually understood how an auto works, and have serviced one, you wouldn't think they were that superior.

ROLLI · 22-11-2010, 01:22 PM

Better tell the drifters they should use autos :/

DBourne · 22-11-2010, 01:57 PM

I'm surprised at the folk who bang on about driving an manual in traffic. Yeah I agree a heavy duty / brass button clutch wouldn't be too fun in traffic, but a normal manual (such as my XR5) is easy as can be in traffic, no problem whatsoever...

TS50 · 22-11-2010, 02:41 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by SgtBourne

I'm surprised at the folk who bang on about driving an manual in traffic. Yeah I agree a heavy duty / brass button clutch wouldn't be too fun in traffic, but a normal manual (such as my XR5) is easy as can be in traffic, no problem whatsoever...

My F6 Clutch is fine for city driving
However, The clutch in the TS is as heavy as all **** and not as much fun
But hey, you cant have everything

trippytaka · 22-11-2010, 03:28 PM

I think it's ridiculous that people are allowed to even get a license on an Auto. Driving a manual gives you more understanding for how a car works and how to work with it.

It will be an extremely sad day when manual transmissions are lost for good.

My 2 cents.

aussie muscle · 22-11-2010, 03:31 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by tweeked

Autos have their place. The one in my Toyota Camry is very good. It is so good, like the rest of the car that I sometimes forget about the car even while i'm driving it.

i think that's the problem with about 80% of the driving force. what was i doing? oh, i'm in a car, maybe i'm driving?

5.4 GT · 22-11-2010, 03:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trippytaka

I think it's ridiculous that people are allowed to even get a license on an Auto. Driving a manual gives you more understanding for how a car works and how to work with it.

It will be an extremely sad day when manual transmissions are lost for good.

My 2 cents.

Just like the day when these went out of fashion:

Grippy · 22-11-2010, 04:07 PM

Guys, this thread wasnt about preference for auto or manual, it was intended to be a discussion on the possibilty of manuals being one day no longer available in brand new cars becuase of lack of demand and it no longer being economically viable for manufacturors to produce. Is there a chance of this happening at one point in the future? It would obviously be a sad day, even if you are an auto fan

Yellow_Festiva · 22-11-2010, 04:43 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Bad Bird

A pure automatic (not a semi-manual, as I'll now call them) will always be reactive, whereas a manual is proactive. I can't see that being overcome very easily.

I hear that one of the new developments with cruise control is that the car is linked to the sat-nav and steep hills / descents are factored in and accommodated for just prior to them being reached.

I can see your point of view however and agree, having said that, the newer 6 and 7 speed / CVT boxes are pretty good and cover 95% of driving conditions just as efficiently as manual boxes.

dimka100 · 22-11-2010, 04:45 PM

Actually I think that the day that manufacturers only need to worry about a single transmission type for each model car they design, R&D, manufacture, sell would be a big win for them, hence I think that day is inevitable as economics will always be the major factor in companies decision making.

As comparing manuals to autos (including semi autos) then from a technical perspective automatic transmissions have an inherent technical performance advantage that manual transmissions ultimately can not match. BTW performance is measured in: acceleration, fuel economy, reliability, NHV, packaging, serviceability and so forth …

When looking at manual transmissions then their technology has pretty much already peaked, there is really not much else left to develop in a manual transmission that will deliver a significant improvement in performance over the current boxes. Sure they might become a bit smother, and easier to shift, packaging could potentially improve a little bit however it much more limited compared to an auto, number of gears has been kept at 6 for ages now, probably as its impractical to increase it rather than due to technological restrictions … Nissan has added the auto throttle blip feature into their latest Z box, but hey this is an AUTOMATIC feature not a manual one

….

Automatic (including semi automatic) transmissions on the other hand are improving all the time and technology matures and more money/time is being spent on R&D. Just look at the latest top crop of 8 speed gearboxes, they can shift much faster than a human ever could, they can shift much smother than a human ever could, they deliver better acceleration and economy at any speed due to greater number of gears, they can handle more power as the gearbox is being far less abused vs a similar manual transmission … and the benefits keep going and going …

The reality what we are seeing today is going to be nothing compared to the automatics we will see in 10, 20, 30 years time. Technology will continue to evolve and things will only get better …

This is however all from the technical side of things, this does not mean specifically driver enjoyment or anything like that, but somehow I’m pretty sure that manufacturers like Ferrari, Labrougini and so forth will find ways to utilise latest technology while still making cars extremely fun to drive, will GM/Ford be able to do the same or fall into the Toyota like “I’m so bored from driving I don’t even know I’m driving” mentality? Only time will tell ….

Yellow_Festiva · 22-11-2010, 04:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by trippytaka

I think it's ridiculous that people are allowed to even get a license on an Auto. Driving a manual gives you more understanding for how a car works and how to work with it.

It will be an extremely sad day when manual transmissions are lost for good.

My 2 cents.

And how relevant is that to most people? My mum, dad and wife (as well as about 3 dozen friends I can think of just off the top of my head) have never driven manual once their whole life, nor do they want / need to know about gears, friction points, revs, clutch etc etc etc.

They get in, turn the key and press the go pedal. As do the majority of people who drive auto cars.

Why must a person need to understand the mechanics behind what goes on behind and under the firewall? (to the extent that they SHOULD learn to drive manual to get their licence?)

cheap · 22-11-2010, 05:16 PM

My 2 cents worth.

Years ago, I bought a 2nd hand built 351-4V for my XW (very good price) but it also had a big Lunati cam and I needed a +3000rpm stall converter for the FMX.

It was a fast car, it could lay rubber on demand, but is was terrible to drive everywhere except the drag strip. In regular stop start traffic it was hopeless, on the highway it was hopeless, it needed +80mph to feel "normal", fuel consumption was terrible too.

After 6 months of driving the auto, in went the top loader, difference was chalk and cheese.

My point is that some engine builds and auto's do not go well together. If the manufactures remove the manual transmission from the equation and only provide autos, the big cammed engine could become an endangered species.

tweeked · 22-11-2010, 05:46 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Yellow_Festiva

And how relevant is that to most people? My mum, dad and wife (as well as about 3 dozen friends I can think of just off the top of my head) have never driven manual once their whole life, nor do they want / need to know about gears, friction points, revs, clutch etc etc etc.

They get in, turn the key and press the go pedal. As do the majority of people who drive auto cars.

Why must a person need to understand the mechanics behind what goes on behind and under the firewall? (to the extent that they SHOULD learn to drive manual to get their licence?)

So that when their cruise control sticks on, they are not one of the increasing crowd who cannot work out that putting the car in neutral and applying the brakes will help.........

kinksta · 22-11-2010, 06:01 PM

I forgot automatics don't have neutral....wtf?

One day I believe there will be a transmission, automatic, that can be used exactly like a manual if you want, just without the extra pedal. It is basically there at the moment.

Another decade or two of development and manuals will be special orders, if that. (IMHO)

Rev28K · 22-11-2010, 06:16 PM

Hmmm a lot of negativity here (including my post).

I’d have an automatic in a track car if:
a) I can set the shift speed (very quick like the latest gen BMW/Ferrari/etc).
b) If I have absolute and total control of what gear I am in. Including the ability to rev the engine to the cut out or behind. My choice (even if it’s the wrong one) not a fuzzy logic computer.
c) It won’t cut the engine power if I’m left foot braking (like some of the Bosch ones are designed to do)
d) If I can get a clear tactile indication of what gear I am in and if it has been selected (maybe a little bump or tremor in the shift lever?)
e) If it was affordable and reliable

Hey who knows in years to come it may be the way to go (the McLaren M4/12C pre-cog system sounds like it’d be a blast) but at the moment we aren’t there yet.