October 08 V-facts

[Nikked]

Very surprising to see Holden Slip down, while ford climbs, given all the bad publicity that Ford gets...

[RATT]

Originally Posted by prydey

i was just comparing them to sept 08 instead of oct 07. maybe someone thought i was posting different figures of 0ct 08??

That's where the confusion is.

[XR6_190]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

On a different topic...how the hell could the Captiva sell more than the Territory?
Don't people know what they buy nowadays?

That's easy, it didn't, the Territory outsold the Captiva by about 30 units. that said, It is sad how many people are buying these Daewoos thinking that they are actually Holdens.

[yift]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

That's easy, it didn't, the Territory outsold the Captiva by about 30 units. that said, It is sad how many people are buying these Daewoos thinking that they are actually Holdens.

people are buying these daewoos because they have a diesel option. bring on the diesel territory i say so we can flogg the captiva back to korea, and hopefully the other that comes from there in the auto industry.

[DanielXR8]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

HUH?? been watching the news at all????? :
To show any form of positive growth at the moment is not only against the entire world wide automotive industry trend, but against world wide economic trends in general....

So the creditors and investors in Ford will say its ok to loose money for several years until things pick up.

Maybe if the company had a really good run before the credit crisis, but Ford didn't. They went from loosing market share on a gradual basis and then loosing money, to loosing lots of money and massive chunks of their market share. So yeah, they do need to be the exception to the rule or at least show real signs they can turn it around, because they were already a bad credit risk before this whole meltdown started.

I don't believe the trends say they can pull that off. I don't think the last two Ford Aust Presidents ran for the hills because it was a great success story here. I think Tom Gorman contributed to the mess, but I also think both could see what was going to happen and didn't want "closing Ford Australia" on their resume.

That was before things went really south in the markets and the industry.

People who borrow money either want it back when its due, or sooner if they don't think you can repay, so they can minimise their loss and move on. The same basic rules that apply for your house, applies for business. Thats the worry for Ford Aust, if it can't show a trend in the up direction. Now the US parent might be in better shape in Obama throws money at Ford, but I suspect if he does there will be one big proviso on it and that will be "make more cars in America". The only convincing argument (again) that Ford Aust can make to that is if it points to an upward trend.

Again saying that the other guy is loosing sales and money, means squat. X amount of dollars has to do x amount of work and get x amount of returns or credit starts to dry up.

If thats weird to you. So be it. Ask your mortgage lender if they will be ok with you not making any payments or payments below the agreed amount on your house for the next two years, because everyone in your street is doing it tough. Point to the next door neighbour and say he is paying even less then you can afford and see what happens.

They will one of several things. Extend your credit, so they can get more from you over the long term, let you babysit the house for a while until they change their minds and see a better option then what you are offering them or nod politely and then ask for your house keys and point you out the door. Thats Ford situation right now and neither is healthy for Ford Aust. They really need something, that says "hey we are the exception to the rule". They need something, that says to their parent company in the US, to the US adminstration and to the shareholders and creditors, that loosing money with Ford Australia and investing even more money on top of that is going to somehow get them out of a hole in the medium term and exporting dollars back home (The USA). Falcon particuarly so, as I am not convinced that Focus on current sales will ever be made here. Falcon is the newest product and the last pain point for Ford, as they sunk a lot of money in it.Terri kind of has an excuse with its lack of investment to keep it fresh. Falcon does not have that excuse.


Dan

[SS_01]

Ford are in trouble, With Ford Credit set to flop, ford are no longer going to be able to supply Finance for there company or clients. No finance company is interested in taking on ford, because its a big risk, same as holden at the moment.

Two company's continue to grow in Australia today, and apart from the obvious in toyota the other manufacturer growing is Volkswagen. These two marks, are the only two that finance company's seem to be happy to help out due to the relative low risk, everybody else is fighting for a finance company.

The way things are going, ford will be out of this country sooner rather than later unfortunately.

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by XR6_190

That's easy, it didn't, the Territory outsold the Captiva by about 30 units. that said, It is sad how many people are buying these Daewoos thinking that they are actually Holdens.

I get ya....

Looked at the graph...it listed the Territory first, with the red bar also being first...

Inconsistent graph...dang it...but it's a good one.

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by russellw

Just to show that it really makes little difference how we are doing against the red corner opposition, here is a little combo chart that looks at the average monthly sales for the lead seller in each segment and then compares the respective models from Ford and Holden with that number. Neither is anything brilliant.



To take that a step further, let's look at the sales numbers for last October.



With the exception of 4x2 Utes, all other segments are down, some quite substantially.

Cheers
Russ

In the first graph that compares ford/holden monthly sales with the sales leader in that segment, what commodore/falcon competitor is selling 10000 units a month?

[Windsor220]

Originally Posted by coupex

In the first graph that compares ford/holden monthly sales with the sales leader in that segment, what commodore/falcon competitor is selling 10000 units a month?

I think its Holden as it is the segment leader. Not sure what that graph is trying to say though.

Good to see the Festiva making a come back :

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by ea90gl

Must be them G6E/G6E-T's selling like hotcakes, not sure about anyone else but I'm seeing plenty out on the roads then thinking damn wish it was me behind the wheel they are nice machines

I'll agree with you here, I keeps seeing higher end Falcons but I dont really see the XT that much. As oposed to Commo's where I see lots of omegas and SS's thats about it the rest of the models are very minimal around here.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by DanielXR8

So the creditors and investors in Ford will say its ok to loose money for several years until things pick up.

Maybe if the company had a really good run before the credit crisis, but Ford didn't. They went from loosing market share on a gradual basis and then loosing money, to loosing lots of money and massive chunks of their market share. So yeah, they do need to be the exception to the rule or at least show real signs they can turn it around, because they were already a bad credit risk before this whole meltdown started.

I don't believe the trends say they can pull that off. I don't think the last two Ford Aust Presidents ran for the hills because it was a great success story here. I think Tom Gorman contributed to the mess, but I also think both could see what was going to happen and didn't want "closing Ford Australia" on their resume.

That was before things went really south in the markets and the industry.

People who borrow money either want it back when its due, or sooner if they don't think you can repay, so they can minimise their loss and move on. The same basic rules that apply for your house, applies for business. Thats the worry for Ford Aust, if it can't show a trend in the up direction. Now the US parent might be in better shape in Obama throws money at Ford, but I suspect if he does there will be one big proviso on it and that will be "make more cars in America". The only convincing argument (again) that Ford Aust can make to that is if it points to an upward trend.

Again saying that the other guy is loosing sales and money, means squat. X amount of dollars has to do x amount of work and get x amount of returns or credit starts to dry up.

If thats weird to you. So be it. Ask your mortgage lender if they will be ok with you not making any payments or payments below the agreed amount on your house for the next two years, because everyone in your street is doing it tough. Point to the next door neighbour and say he is paying even less then you can afford and see what happens.

They will one of several things. Extend your credit, so they can get more from you over the long term, let you babysit the house for a while until they change their minds and see a better option then what you are offering them or nod politely and then ask for your house keys and point you out the door. Thats Ford situation right now and neither is healthy for Ford Aust. They really need something, that says "hey we are the exception to the rule". They need something, that says to their parent company in the US, to the US adminstration and to the shareholders and creditors, that loosing money with Ford Australia and investing even more money on top of that is going to somehow get them out of a hole in the medium term and exporting dollars back home (The USA). Falcon particuarly so, as I am not convinced that Focus on current sales will ever be made here. Falcon is the newest product and the last pain point for Ford, as they sunk a lot of money in it.Terri kind of has an excuse with its lack of investment to keep it fresh. Falcon does not have that excuse.


Dan

You're missing the point entirely, the topic (and my point) was this months results and how they're in contrast to the other manufacturers during what's widely accepted as a very difficult period for the automotive industry..., not bashing Ford for their long term financial position and history, and the fiscal machinations of that past..
Large gains don't happen over night, they are made in small steps, at least we headed in the right direction this month, as long as we're making money on each sale then its a positive result, albeit minor in the big picture...

[buggerlugs]

Seeing heaps of Reps with the new commie wagon.............. Starting to see heaps of the new Fords now.................

[Tles]

Originally Posted by Stealth00

Disappointed with the Mondeo sales, that car deserves to do better.

However Focus sales look good.

Ford should be reasonably happy with that result given the climate.

Mondeo wagon should be here already, lot of Territories traded in to VW dealers for Passat Wagons, when the Mondy would have been a far better option, or at least a less boring one.

[Martyvan]

Originally Posted by Tles

Mondeo wagon should be here already, lot of Territories traded in to VW dealers for Passat Wagons, when the Mondy would have been a far better option, or at least a less boring one.

Correct, If Ford had a Diesel mondeo wagon, they would have a 'green' family sized wagon, and would be taking a lot of orders from fleets(if they have an entry level model) some smaller companies would be switching to that type of vehicle. Larger companies still mostly see the bottom line, and when they can get a commodore hatchback for less than the price of a camry, they are not going to be forking out $35k+ for green wagon.

[Gobes32]

It would be interesting to hear from anyone that has priced up a commodore lately? I know for a fact that you can purchase a G6 for around $39,990 and negotiate from there. Whats a berlina/calais worth? Also I wonder what the profit margin is on a commodore these days. One thing I read somewhere was that Ford were going to stop chasing the fleet sale because it kills the private customers re sale three years later when there is a glut of them on the second hand market. Also the reason many people might notice more G6's on the road rather than the basic XT model is due to the pricing of the models. Ford have priced the G6 very aggressively with the XT to ensure private buyers opt for the dearer model. It looks better on the roads if public buyers are driving your upmarket models.

[uranium_death]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

Ford have priced the G6 very aggressively with the XT to ensure private buyers opt for the dearer model. It looks better on the roads if public buyers are driving your upmarket models.

I think that has been an excellent move by Ford.
Rather than have people driving around in base model cars, get them in a product that you are confident about. If the car is nice and people can see great value in a product that Ford believes is reliable, then you're more likely to retain them in the future.

Though the base model Falcon is still a good car, for only a little more you get a car that looks nicer, rides nicer, and has more features.

[RATT]

Originally Posted by VW_060606

Ford are in trouble, With Ford Credit set to flop, ford are no longer going to be able to supply Finance for there company or clients. No finance company is interested in taking on ford.

Don't know where you heard that. Ford Credit is still operating and is in a better position than GMAC and most other credit providers to the automotive industry in the states.

[prydey]

Originally Posted by coupex

In the first graph that compares ford/holden monthly sales with the sales leader in that segment, what commodore/falcon competitor is selling 10000 units a month?

the graph is showing that the 'large car' segment which includes commodore, falcon and aurion etc is selling 10000odd cars per month. the red and blue is the percentage of those that are holden and ford.

thats how i understand it anyways.

[irlewy86]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

It would be interesting to hear from anyone that has priced up a commodore lately? I know for a fact that you can purchase a G6 for around $39,990 and negotiate from there. Whats a berlina/calais worth? Also I wonder what the profit margin is on a commodore these days. One thing I read somewhere was that Ford were going to stop chasing the fleet sale because it kills the private customers re sale three years later when there is a glut of them on the second hand market. Also the reason many people might notice more G6's on the road rather than the basic XT model is due to the pricing of the models. Ford have priced the G6 very aggressively with the XT to ensure private buyers opt for the dearer model. It looks better on the roads if public buyers are driving your upmarket models.

Their advertising Omega's for 32,990 with mags, a/c and some fancy 60th anniversary badges. Isn't that what a Berlina is anyway?

[uranium_death]

Berlina used to be the lower-end luxury model, like the Fairmont...

Now, I have no idea what the hell it is...it's an Omega with a different badge and better wheels? NFI!

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Berlina used to be the lower-end luxury model, like the Fairmont...

Now, I have no idea what the hell it is...it's an Omega with a different badge and better wheels? NFI!

Omega = Exec
Berlina = Acclaim
Calais = Berlina
Calais V = Calais
SV6 = S pack = POS
SS = SV8
SSV = SSV

[Swordsman88]

Originally Posted by vztrt

Omega = Exec
Berlina = Acclaim
Calais = Berlina
Calais V = Calais
SV6 = S pack = POS
SS = SV8
SSV = SSV

Basically, this is correct. Ford opted to drop models effectively (the futura) and totally rename into the G series, holden just played around with the order of its models.

The sales out there on VEs is just crazy, if it was half decent they would get plenty of private buyers grabbing them....too bad it aint. Truth is that most people (who aren't hardcore brand loyalists) who want large cars test drive a falcon and commodore at least (and maybe aurion). As long as this is the case the VE is doomed in low spec forms at least, and in fact most models (V8s aside). Those commodore sales include wagon which has been pushed very heavilly so it is pretty clear that without massive fleet discounting and wagon VE would actually be behind FG.

[Auslandau]

Originally Posted by buggerlugs

Seeing heaps of Reps with the new commie wagon.............. Starting to see heaps of the new Fords now.................

Mate who is a rep popped in today with his new "Sport" Wagon. He is dissappointed with the space in the back not relising how small when he asked for one. Said he would have preffered a Ford wagon but said it was a shame they arent being made anymore ...... there's a little of the problem right there!

ANY improvement has to be seen as a win in this climate!!!



| [/url] |

[marcosambrose]

How on earth did ford manage to increase YoY?

That is a monumental effort taking into consideration the hammering the auto industry is taking at the moment globally.

Kudos!

(although the new Fiesta and Territory cant come soon enough)

[russellw]

The supplementary statistics for October have been updated to include year on year, 3 year and 5 year sales volume changes for the key models produced by Ford, Holden and Toyota.

Cheers
Russ

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

Be an easy job, although boring, and little chance of commission.

On a different topic...how the hell could the Captiva sell more than the Territory?
Don't people know what they buy nowadays?

The Captiva is a small SUV in the RAV4 class, not comparable with the Territory which is a full family size SUV. Even though Holden in their wet dreams think it's a Territory rival. So the stats should be seen in the context of the small SUV category which has been growing in response to the (often irrational) downsizing trend. More concerning is that people will buy Klugers and Prados in preference to Territory even though the Ford is far better designed and miles safer. That is totally irrational.

I've just been dealing with some correspondence in Sydneys Child magazine in which someone expressed the frustration of finding an SUV (indeed any car) in which you can fit 3 child seats or 2 child seats and a capsule across the second row. The Territory is almost the only one on the market that is wide enough inside to do this. Trouble is people go and buy the Japanese crap and then get home and try to fit the seats in - then start whinging that they can't. Consumers are fundamentally stupid and manufacturers like Toyota make hay of that.

[russellw]

You may well be right about the Captiva size but it meets the criteria used by VFACTs to place it in the same category as the Territory which is medium SUV and thus they are directly comparable.

Cheers
Russ

[new2ford]

Originally Posted by russellw

You may well be right about the Captiva size but it meets the criteria used by VFACTs to place it in the same category as the Territory which is medium SUV and thus they are directly comparable.

Cheers
Russ

Yes I am aware of that Russ - I should have elaborated. But it is clearly wrong as anybody would see going into a sales yard and sitting inside. Captiva would fail the 3 child seats test and even 3 adults (unless they held their breath and didn't move a muscle during the journey). I've spoken to Vfacts people in the past, they know some categorisation is questionable but sometimes a decision has to be made one way or the other.

[Sprint XR8]

Originally Posted by uranium_death

On a different topic...how the hell could the Captiva sell more than the Territory?
Don't people know what they buy nowadays?

The charts wrong, in 2007 Territory sold 17290 units Captiva sold 10436 units,
2008 YTD Territory 11030 Captiva 8619.

[Silver Ghia]

I do see more of the Commodore 'Sports' Wagons lately, but I'm wondering how much longer this car will sell well.

For one thing when people realise the lack of room in the back.
And for me it looks uglier every time I see one. Those tail lights are hideous.