Holden's LPG range released including Caprice, SV6 and Sportwagon

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by Grobbo

They are reputational, but we won't ever see a flood of manufacturers pumping out ever improving LPG engines like with diesel, because Australia's the only place where LPG is cheap enough to make sense.

With only two players offering LPG cars, they'll need to fix it's reputation with good marketing.

Which is a good point actually, because Holden will probably market the hell out of thier LPG cars, so Ford will certainly benefit from that too.

Australia isn't the only place that uses LPG, some manufacturers in Europe and Asia have factory LPG cars. There was a small car from Asia that was being considered for Australia only recently, a Hyundai maybe?

And there are cars available in the UK with factory fit LPG.

[1TUFFUTE]

Originally Posted by johnydep

The Focus went up in price as soon as Wheels announced it was in the final selection of COTY. Went up a few thousand in January while we were looking.

THATS WIERD THE LAST I HEARD ITS BEEN 19K FOR MONTHS NOW

[johnydep]

Originally Posted by 1TUFFUTE

THATS WIERD THE LAST I HEARD ITS BEEN 19K FOR MONTHS NOW

Sorry, I was looking at the higher spec models only.

[The G6ET Spot]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

This is a perfect opportunity for Ford to push their superiority, both in terms of price and technology. Now let's watch Ford's advertising department make the EcoLPi fail.

Exactly. they will just sit on their hands and do nothing like they always do.

And then question as to why they are not selling cars.

[Bossxr8]

Originally Posted by johnydep

Sorry, I was looking at the higher spec models only.

Didn't they just put the price up a few hundred dollars yet made satnav standard fitment on the high spec models?

Good trade off I think.

[GT69]

Originally Posted by The G6ET Spot

Exactly. they will just sit on their hands and do nothing like they always do.

And then question as to why they are not selling cars.

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=lxWJPfvMsSs

here you go.....

[1TUFFUTE]

ahhh now the real truth comes out...common guys...lets keep the facts FACTS for the fords at least huh

[PoweredByCNG]

http://www.carpoint.com.au/news/2012...enchmark-28913

11.8L/100km for Omega
12.4L/100km for SV6

180kW @ 6000rpm
320Nm @ 2500rpm
12.2:1 compression ratio

Tank behind rear axle, 84L usable, spare wheel placed in luggage storage space like the Falcon.

The differences in power, torque, fuel consumption and CO2 emissions seem to be largely a case of swings and roundabouts, but the Commodore has one particular advantage over the Falcon — it starts faster. In fact, there's no difference in starting time from petrol to LPG variants of the Holden, McMurray told motoring.com.au.

Yeah, right. We all know that cold-start is the weakness of any LPG system that utilises vaporiser technology. Also, if my maths serves me right, 320Nm is 89Nm less than the Falcon and as an owner of a car with a car with an Alloytec engine, I know that the torque doesn't come on tap until later in the rev range. The Falcon also reaches 198kW already at 5000rpm so it is considerably ahead of the Commodore throughout the rev range anyway.

FAIL!

[prydey]

Originally Posted by Brazen

Looks no way near technically good as the EcoLPI, my ute would thrash these Holdens. But the no loss of bootspace with full sized spare is perhaps more important for some buyers??

when you absorb all the dribble that comes out of holden and believe it, inevitably you will end up with egg on your face.

Originally Posted by carpoint

Key to the new system is the vapour injection hardware — as opposed to the liquid injection system adopted by Ford for the Falcon. According to Holden, vapour injection provides better economy, lower emissions and easier starting. In fact, one aim of the development program was to offer buyers a 'seamless' LPG-fuelled vehicle that drove indistinguishably from a petrol variant. Holden has even managed to make the issue of slow starting go away with the new system.

"Overall data supports the fact that vapour injection results in lower fuel consumption — and therefore lower CO2 emissions, when compared to liquid injection," explained Holden's Brian McMurray, Program Engineering Manager for Global RWD.

"Vapour injection uses fuel more efficiently. The reason for this? Vapour has lower pumping and parasitic losses, when compared with liquid injection."

"Vapour for us was the right solution."

hows this gem!! seriously, holden say whatever they have to to put their product on the pedestal and the frustrating thing is knowing that 90% of the population will believe it. find one lpg expert that says vapour injection is more efficient than liquid injection!

yes, i'm blue blooded but that article has got so much fail in it!! lots of fail in the comments section too.

[jpd80]

Bottom line LPG is available ion the whole range and comes with a spare tyre.
I think Holden will play up the spare tyre angle to the max...

[prydey]

Originally Posted by jpd80

and comes with a spare tyre.
I think Holden will play up the spare tyre angle to the max...

Holden offers buyers an inflator kit as standard for all LPG vehicles. The kit maximises boot space and provides what Holden marketing executive Kristian Aquilina called "the white shirt option". For those who prefer a spare tyre, there's a spacesaver spare option that sits on the boot floor of the sedan or, deflated, sits upright in the driver's side of the Sportwagon's luggage compartment.

the way i read it, the spare is a space saver, and is optional. ecoLPi also offers a spare tyre option. no difference.

the difference is the lack of criticism in the article compared to the ecoLPi articles. they got hammered over the spare issue (on here as well), and many jumped to the conclusion that holden (who apparently, unlike ford, give buyers what they want) had sorted out the spare issue. holden say there is no compromise over the petrol model simply because the petrol model no longer has a spare either!!

[Gobes32]

The tyre has to be deflated to sit upright in the wagon? fail.........

[TMC]

"vapour has lower pumping and parasitic losses, when compared with liquid injection" What in the world does that mean???? What is that guy talking about? "Parasitic losses" - what a negative term to describe absolutely nothing about LPi.

I think it's just a "Ford has LPi - let's rubbish that - then we'll talk up vapour injection because people will believe anything we say"

I think the guy who said it should describe himself in similar terms.

[TMC]

Originally Posted by Gobes32

The tyre has to be deflated to sit upright in the wagon? fail.........

Total fail.

Why not leave the tyre at the shop and get it when you need it.

[saber]

Originally Posted by brett.r.johnstone

A dedicated wagon with a spare tyre still in the floor... Something Ford never got done...

+1

Unfortunately, while tyre technology has come a long way, the general public (and many on this forum) still feel more comfortable keeping a spare wheel in the car.

I currently own a BFII Egas sedan, and I don’t run the space saving tyre. I honestly hate the factory location for the space saving tyre, hence why I don’t carry the spare.

I’d much rather carry the spare where the petrol models carry it...

In my opinion, the LPG Holden will still sell, and sell fairly well.
The truth is, the general public doesn’t care if the LPG system is SVI or LI, or %&FYF (made up the acronym).

Will the SVI system be reliable: Yes (Cars Guide said so!)
Is the car powerful enough to take my 2.42 kids to school, overtake on the freeway, and nip down to the shops for a quick latte? Yes
Does it carry a spare, which doesn’t hinder boot space: Yes
Does it have enough boot space to fit a pram/weekly shopping: Yes
And (most importantly):
Does it have a Holden badge: YES!!!

End of story.

[Grobbo]

Wow it reads like a sales broucher with some propaganda thrown in for good measure. No attempt at being impartial, or doing any research into Holdens claims...

[arlester]

Guys. Holden can't play the spare tyre up. The car does not come with one as standard. You have to option either a space saver or full size spare and even then it goes into the boot just like the EcoLPi falcon. The sportswagon can also be optioned with a deflated space saver once again residing in the boot.

Holden's press release was misleading in the way it was written. The standard petrol commodore no longer comes with a spare tyre at all hence they can say there is no boot room loss.

[saber]

Originally Posted by arlester

Guys. Holden can't play the spare tyre up. The car does not come with one as standard. You have to option either a space saver or full size spare and even then it goes into the boot just like the EcoLPi falcon. The sportswagon can also be optioned with a deflated space saver once again residing in the boot.

Holden's press release was misleading in the way it was written. The standard petrol commodore no longer comes with a spare tyre at all hence they can say there is no boot room loss.

Hi mate.

Do you have a link to where it states that the spare sits in the boot like the EcoLPi Falcon?

From the drive article posted on the first page:

“We understand LPG Commodores will lose no boot space, unlike Falcon EcoLPi sedans, which have a shallower boot than petrol models but also lose the full-size spare wheel as standard equipment.”

I read this as “LPG Commodore doesn’t lose boot space with a spare tyre fitted (unsure whether they’re referring to a full sized spare, or a space saving spare), unlike Falcon which does lose boot space, and doesn’t come with a full sized spare as standard”

Maybe the article has got it wrong, wouldn’t be the first time...

[XtRmn8]

The fact that they offer the engine across the entire range and especially the Sportwagon, it will sell well. People will buy an LPG car to save on running costs and the Holden is ahead of the ford because it has a lower combined advertised consumption.

Your average buyer will not care if the car is liquid or vapour injected and the fact that the Falcon will get to 100km/h one second faster will also make SFA difference in terms of sales.

[arlester]

Originally Posted by saber

Hi mate.

Do you have a link to where it states that the spare sits in the boot like the EcoLPi Falcon?

From the drive article posted on the first page:

“We understand LPG Commodores will lose no boot space, unlike Falcon EcoLPi sedans, which have a shallower boot than petrol models but also lose the full-size spare wheel as standard equipment.”

I read this as “LPG Commodore doesn’t lose boot space with a spare tyre fitted (unsure whether they’re referring to a full sized spare, or a space saving spare), unlike Falcon which does lose boot space, and doesn’t come with a full sized spare as standard”

Maybe the article has got it wrong, wouldn’t be the first time...

http://www.caradvice.com.au/159889/h...mmodore-review

You will find it in the paragraph under the red SV6 wagon

[PoweredByCNG]

The sad thing is, despite Holden's claim of 'no compromise' motoring, the new dedicated LPG engine still falls 10Nm short of the original Alloytec180 that was shipped with the base-model MY06 VE Commodores, even with the much higher 12.2:1 compression ratio (up from 10.2:1 on the petrol engines).

As we knew all along, Ford is now in a position to completely RIDICULE the opposition's LPG product. It's now up to their advertising team to do it justice.

[Joe5619]

Originally Posted by XtRmn8

The fact that they offer the engine across the entire range and especially the Sportwagon, it will sell well. People will buy an LPG car to save on running costs and the Holden is ahead of the ford because it has a lower combined advertised consumption.

Your average buyer will not care if the car is liquid or vapour injected and the fact that the Falcon will get to 100km/h one second faster will also make SFA difference in terms of sales.

I truly wonder why people log into this website sometime... People just want to kick the Falcon every time they can...

How you can say one well sell well & imply the other won’t is truly mind blowing.. The fuel difference is only 0.5L/100km (This aren’t going to swing sales much), both are available across their entire range & both don't have spare tyres & one does have far surprise performance. But yes, they clearly will sell more Wagons, but that is only because Ford does not sell them which is not new!!

Also, the average punter does not buy these cars, they are Fleet sales & sales will go to who ever offers the best & biggest discounts!!

[PoweredByCNG]

Further to the above, look how much Holden are charging for a base model LPG Commodore. It's just beyond belief!

[XtRmn8]

This review has a bit more info: http://theage.drive.com.au/motor-new...222-1tmud.html

While the LPG engine gives up 30kw and 30Nm to the petrol V6 (3.6L SIDI), peak power kicks in 700rpm lower at 6000rpm and peak torque (or pulling power) – even more importantly – 800rpm lower at a diesel-esque 2000rpm.

As a result, the LPG engine feels lively and responsive. It is certainly stronger down low than the 3.0-litre SIDI V6 that the standard Omega and Berlina sedans and sportwagons and Omega utes employ.

3.6 LPG: 180kw at 6000rpm and 320Nm at 2000rpm.
3.0 SIDI: 190kw at 6700rpm and 290Nm at 2400rpm
3.6 SIDI: 210kw at 6400rpm and 350Nm at 2900rpm

[Brazen]

Loss of full sized spare means it has no advantage over the Falcon. Apart from instant start without priming - but the Falcon has much more power and torque. Ford must hope all this renewed attention on LPG will bring more buyers in.

Pricing is a little curious, it really should be a No Cost Option on SV6 and Caprice as they had the fancy DI 3.6 to begin with. Whereas its probably worth paying extra over the 3.0 in Omega and Berlina.

[saber]

Originally Posted by arlester

http://www.caradvice.com.au/159889/h...mmodore-review

You will find it in the paragraph under the red SV6 wagon

Ahh thanks for the article. The article doesn’t state the boot space of both the Commodore or Falcon. All it states is that Holden engineers had a brief to not “compromise boot space”...doesn’t mean boot space has been reduced compared to the Commodore petrol equivalent, or more/less than the Falcon for that matter...

Originally Posted by Joe5619

Also, the average punter does not buy these cars, they are Fleet sales & sales will go to who ever offers the best & biggest discounts!!

Agree 100%

At the end of the day, there doesn’t appear to be much difference between the two.

While many here tout superior technology (LI vs SVI) and more power/torque, do these factors really concern a fleet buyer/manager?
Generally, both vehicles have more than adequate performance to perform all the necessary day to day duties, and have comparable fuel economy, making the whole LI is better than SVI argument mute.
Do fleet manager care if the Falcon is more powerful, and can accelerate to 100km/h 0.5sec (or whatever the figure is) faster?
I’m guessing they don’t. To a fleet manager, the price is the critical factor, and as Joe5619 correctly stated, a fleet manager will buy whatever vehicle forfills their needs at the best price. At this stage, the Falcon appears to have the advantage.

[BigAL_250]

How did they manage to get a lower fuel consumption from an older less efficient system? Is it just because it's missing a chunk of power?

Or perhaps Ford just hasn't found the best economic tune yet, it is a fairly new technology, and they would be doing continual testing to get it's numbers down.

edit: Or are they just lying about the commy's economy again?

[jpd80]

Originally Posted by BigAL_250

How did they manage to get a lower fuel consumption from an older less efficient system? Is it just because it's missing a chunk of power?

6-speed auto Vs 4-speed uuuggghhhhh thing.

[PoweredByCNG]

The new 6-speed transmission would be the major component that would make the most difference in terms of reduced fuel consumption for the LPG Commodore. One thing to note is that the Holden LPG engine is likely to be on the very edge of what would be possible with the base V6 engine, whereas Ford's I6 could easily be derated to match or undercut the fuel economy figures of Holden's engine, without sacrificing driveability too much. A 180kW, 380Nm Ford I6 will still be more driveable than a 180kW, 320Nm GM HFV6.

[saber]

Originally Posted by PoweredByCNG

One thing to note is that the Holden LPG engine is likely to be on the very edge of what would be possible with the base V6 engine, whereas Ford's I6 could easily be derated to match or undercut the fuel economy figures of Holden's engine, without sacrificing driveability too much. A 180kW, 380Nm Ford I6 will still be more driveable than a 180kW, 320Nm GM HFV6.

If this is the case, it begs the question: Why didn't Ford detune the engine so it gets better mileage?