Holden V8 Sales Sizeable Increase

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by ltd

You did read the part where he was talking about the 3 valve 230kw motor didn't you? I hope you did, because a calais V was able to trounce the pants of a fairmont ghia with a 230kw V8. Now that ford has ostensibly replaced that engine with a more powerful and much more useable torque turbo 6, Ford is trouncing the calais.
No, I stand by what I said, a 290kw XR8 motor in a G6 would be a good thing; a 230kw motor bad.

Initially I was having a dig at the op for his usual rant about any of Ford's decisions. They've decided to give the turbo 6 a go in place of the V8, for the luxury models. I could be wrong but In my view a 290kW G8E wouldn't have been as successful as some would think. I mentioned the 230 because when it was around, it didn't do much. As Brent points out, it didn't have the numbers. You know well how good the bottom end was.

My theory on this is the Boss motors, although smooth and efficient, can be perceived as too peaky for what is a luxury car? I could be mistaken but in their wisdom Ford has allowed the turbo to do the talking. It's just too brilliant a motor to fail with whatever they do with it. They've used it well.

There was nothing wrong with the 230, below 3000rpm - where most driving is done - it was alot torquier than the Boss, alot torquier than the LS2, and even the LS3. This was perfect. Yet image gets in the way once again. It doesn't have "enough" power to do the job. It didn't sell because it didn't have that big number. Mated to the ZF it was actually as quick as the VZ Calais in some tests (don't include the tests where Holden - as they usually do - provide warmed over V8s).

Ford are winning with the G6ET and yet it's not good enough. Holden has a crap V6 that no cashed up bogan wants so instead they'll convince themselves DOD does actually save fuel and go buy a V8. Two completely different reasons why both are selling what they're selling.




Brent, in another thread you clearly point out the XR8 is failing in sales compared to the XR6T, and for the same reason a G8E would have also failed in the same manner. A few individuals would like it, like ltd or your father, I would like too. But when the G6ET is that good I'm not sure they'd move alot of G8Es.

[Swordsman88]

Don't worry guys, only have a year or so to go and Ford will have a fully modern, quad cam DIVCT screamer of a cyclone engine. They will make a G8E then for sure i'd say. Whether it is retuned or just a carbon copy of the XR8 engine one can't be sure, but either way it will be a great complement to the G6ET. Watching a G8E burn less per 100km then a V8 AFM calais will be made all the more sweet by the 30kw advantage it will carry too.

Ford knows the 230kw v8 didn't sell because it wasn't competitive, though it was a great engine. It also didn't make a 'statement', it was a sleeper of a car and too much of a sleeper at that. By spreading the R & D of the cyclone over more cars, continuing the positioning of the G series (and falcon generally) as a premium car (luxury + performance) and being truly competitive on performance they will be ona winner. In fact the lower sales of the XR8 in recent times means they are more likely than ever to spread their V8 engines around to maximise the number of units.

EDIT: just saw falc'man's post. To continue on from that, while i agree that the presence of the G6ET may hamper G8E sales, i think the nature of the cyclone engine is at play here. An engine that is smooth and revy, all about the noise in effect but still tractable and smooth enough for day to day duties is the key. BOSS owners will go for the animal side, the emotional aspect of the engine. G8E owners will have this over a G6ET, which is more clinical. BUT, to succeed in a luxury car you have to have an engine that suits its character. Muscular but refined. the BOSS is not percieved as that engine. I think a next gen cyclone engine could be, and if packs the rights numbers on paper too....will be a great (albeit lesser selling) compatriate to the G6ET.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by banarcus

Oh and another thing. I'll get burnt for this. What is bad about the Holden V6? Due to the generous gearing from the automatic, the V6 actually goes pretty good especially down low(I drove a factory LPG version too). Sure it's not an enthusiasts engine of choice, but it is a very capable motor for the car it is in. I truely believed what I read here about it until I actually drove it and what is often stated here about it is pretty much BS.

What I will say is that the VE wiring gremlins are alive and well.

Capable engine? Is it the only thing youve tried since kingswood?

The new Holden Alloytec V6 is internally dubbed HFV6 - High Feature V6. It WAS to be the pinnacle of V6 design efficiency however it quickly became aparent that this motor was a flop from the start.

Lets see, apart from the fact that the bore/stroke ratio is awfully wrong, torque and power outputs are appaling given its cubic displacement and the fact that its fuel consumption would suggest its a 4.5ltr, there really isnt all that much to fault.
Oh, apart from the fact that this engine has huge 'internal/inhouse' scrap rates, most of which are found AFTER the engines with the customer leaves alot to be desired - incorrect valve seat machining, crank tunnel taper, cylinder bore taper, wrong pistons eg:3.0/3.2ltr mixup.
But i guess these are only MINOR issues. I know cause im on the inside. i get 35% off commodore and wouldnt touch a V6.

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by fte50

Capable engine? Is it the only thing youve tried since kingswood?

The new Holden Alloytec V6 is internally dubbed HFV6 - High Feature V6. It WAS to be the pinnacle of V6 design efficiency however it quickly became aparent that this motor was a flop from the start.

Lets see, apart from the fact that the bore/stroke ratio is awfully wrong, torque and power outputs are appaling given its cubic displacement and the fact that its fuel consumption would suggest its a 4.5ltr, there really isnt all that much to fault.
Oh, apart from the fact that this engine has huge 'internal/inhouse' scrap rates, most of which are found AFTER the engines with the customer leaves alot to be desired - incorrect valve seat machining, crank tunnel taper, cylinder bore taper, wrong pistons eg:3.0/3.2ltr mixup.
But i guess these are only MINOR issues. I know cause im on the inside. i get 35% off commodore and wouldnt touch a V6.

OUCH! That's got to hurt. This info is news to most of us, we only know it's bad because of how it performs. Or doesn't perform.

Yep, I'd even buy an LS if I had to steer clear of that glorified boat anchor.

[4Vman]

There is without doubt an element or truth that suggests the V8 sell because the V6 is so bad... and brand loyalty so strong...

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Falc'man

Initially I was having a dig at the op for his usual rant about any of Ford's decisions. They've decided to give the turbo 6 a go in place of the V8, for the luxury models. I could be wrong but In my view a 290kW G8E wouldn't have been as successful as some would think. I mentioned the 230 because when it was around, it didn't do much. As Brent points out, it didn't have the numbers. You know well how good the bottom end was.

My theory on this is the Boss motors, although smooth and efficient, can be perceived as too peaky for what is a luxury car? I could be mistaken but in their wisdom Ford has allowed the turbo to do the talking. It's just too brilliant a motor to fail with whatever they do with it. They've used it well.

There was nothing wrong with the 230, below 3000rpm - where most driving is done - it was alot torquier than the Boss, alot torquier than the LS2, and even the LS3. This was perfect. Yet image gets in the way once again. It doesn't have "enough" power to do the job. It didn't sell because it didn't have that big number. Mated to the ZF it was actually as quick as the VZ Calais in some tests (don't include the tests where Holden - as they usually do - provide warmed over V8s).

Ford are winning with the G6ET and yet it's not good enough. Holden has a crap V6 that no cashed up bogan wants so instead they'll convince themselves DOD does actually save fuel and go buy a V8. Two completely different reasons why both are selling what they're selling.




Brent, in another thread you clearly point out the XR8 is failing in sales compared to the XR6T, and for the same reason a G8E would have also failed in the same manner. A few individuals would like it, like ltd or your father, I would like too. But when the G6ET is that good I'm not sure they'd move alot of G8Es.

I thought you were having a dig at the OP which is why I was a little sarcastic about it and mentioned the fairmont Ghia V8 and the kind of sales it got (woeful at best). I should qualify that I think renaming the top end vehicles and ditching the fairmont nameplate has been a stroke of brilliance on Fords part. I'm a happy guy with my car and I don't miss anything about the V8's except the sound. That being said I think the turbo 6 sounds awesome and I love the turbo whine on acceleration. It sort of warns knob-ends to look out.
I agree entirely with your assessment on the 230kw V8 compared to the Boss, and concur that it is a numbers game as far as the market is concerned. Again, you are also correct on the strength and brilliance of the turbo 6 motor, and I do realise that a G8E would not actually be faster than the G6E-T.
Overall, you are 100% correct.

[Bluepower]

Kudos to Holden to have a great engine like the LS, with minimal changes to it since 1998. What a success story, when compared to Ford's half a$$ed attempts at an engine program.

Ford could have released a 6.0 and smashed Holden, they didn't because its a business, we are on a forum because we love fords, these pencil neck's are not like us, they didn't grow up with XY GT pics on the wall......

Good on holden, and as for ford?? I just lament on what could have been......

[GK]

Originally Posted by fte50

Capable engine? Is it the only thing youve tried since kingswood?

The new Holden Alloytec V6 is internally dubbed HFV6 - High Feature V6. It WAS to be the pinnacle of V6 design efficiency however it quickly became aparent that this motor was a flop from the start.

Lets see, apart from the fact that the bore/stroke ratio is awfully wrong, torque and power outputs are appaling given its cubic displacement and the fact that its fuel consumption would suggest its a 4.5ltr, there really isnt all that much to fault.
Oh, apart from the fact that this engine has huge 'internal/inhouse' scrap rates, most of which are found AFTER the engines with the customer leaves alot to be desired - incorrect valve seat machining, crank tunnel taper, cylinder bore taper, wrong pistons eg:3.0/3.2ltr mixup.
But i guess these are only MINOR issues. I know cause im on the inside. i get 35% off commodore and wouldnt touch a V6.

You know because you're on the inside. Outside though, brand loyalty and marketing still continue to weave their magic don't they?

Hopefully though, Ford's superior product and market placement over time will win them greater market share, at a higher rate of profitability.

GK

[banarcus]

Originally Posted by fte50

Capable engine? Is it the only thing youve tried since kingswood?

The new Holden Alloytec V6 is internally dubbed HFV6 - High Feature V6. It WAS to be the pinnacle of V6 design efficiency however it quickly became aparent that this motor was a flop from the start.

Lets see, apart from the fact that the bore/stroke ratio is awfully wrong, torque and power outputs are appaling given its cubic displacement and the fact that its fuel consumption would suggest its a 4.5ltr, there really isnt all that much to fault.
Oh, apart from the fact that this engine has huge 'internal/inhouse' scrap rates, most of which are found AFTER the engines with the customer leaves alot to be desired - incorrect valve seat machining, crank tunnel taper, cylinder bore taper, wrong pistons eg:3.0/3.2ltr mixup.
But i guess these are only MINOR issues. I know cause im on the inside. i get 35% off commodore and wouldnt touch a V6.

No, I have driven a few holdens since the red motor and I don't necessarily believe the Corolla or the Camry are cars that people aspire to own either but both are capable and do their job. Just like the Commodore V6 does and despite what you say about their V6, for the average joe blow who is not an ethusiast, it does the job. If you want something better, they have their V8.

The difference between Holden and Ford fanboys is since Ford dropped the clevo, their fan base have adopted the 6cyl as a performance engine, no doubt because of the Tickford efforts in the 90s and the turbo efforts since the BA. The fact that Ford were using the 165kW windsor for so long helped the 6cyl too.

Sorry for going way off topic here people.....

[Wally]

Originally Posted by banarcus

........ Just like the Commodore V6 does and despite what you say about their V6, for the average joe blow who is not an ethusiast, it does the job. If you want something better, they have their V8.

......

True. The general public don't buy on the basis of who's lump is better, they buy on car looks and how it feels to them. Just like many here refuse to like the look of the VE, there are many out there who don't like the look of the FG.

The Ford hypermilers are playing up the AFM on the 6.0 for all it's worth, but it doesn't seem to be turning sales away. I suspect the increase sales are more through brand awareness than brand loyalty.... of course brand loyalty is a dirty coin of phrase here and only applies to Holden owners.

[csv8]

Holden V6 is a 3l from September......

[XplosiveR6]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

Kudos to Holden to have a great engine like the LS, with minimal changes to it since 1998. What a success story, when compared to Ford's half a$$ed attempts at an engine program.

Ford could have released a 6.0 and smashed Holden, they didn't because its a business, we are on a forum because we love fords, these pencil neck's are not like us, they didn't grow up with XY GT pics on the wall......

Good on holden, and as for ford?? I just lament on what could have been......

kudos to holden for what? being lucky thier parent company upgrades their dispacement of their V8s every year for holden to simply import them and throw into their commodore, and happens to be their only performance motor they offer. Yea sounds like alot of effort.
Where as ford developed in house their turbocharged I6 and still offered a competitive V8 which is assembled and engineered somewhat here, which they dont need 6.0l to perform good power levels.
Ford Aus obviously spend alot more on R&D on their performance motors then holden for such a small market its such a great effort.
We should be greatfull these companys give us such huge options. But some people will never be happy.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by fte50

Capable engine? Is it the only thing youve tried since kingswood?

The new Holden Alloytec V6 is internally dubbed HFV6 - High Feature V6. It WAS to be the pinnacle of V6 design efficiency however it quickly became aparent that this motor was a flop from the start.

Lets see, apart from the fact that the bore/stroke ratio is awfully wrong, torque and power outputs are appaling given its cubic displacement and the fact that its fuel consumption would suggest its a 4.5ltr, there really isnt all that much to fault.
Oh, apart from the fact that this engine has huge 'internal/inhouse' scrap rates, most of which are found AFTER the engines with the customer leaves alot to be desired - incorrect valve seat machining, crank tunnel taper, cylinder bore taper, wrong pistons eg:3.0/3.2ltr mixup.
But i guess these are only MINOR issues. I know cause im on the inside. i get 35% off commodore and wouldnt touch a V6.

Without wanting to sound too harsh, I find it hard to believe the V6 engines come out of the factory that way. Not when the engines are essentially produced by machines with strict tolerances.

You kind of lost me when you stated "the bore/stroke ratio is awfully wrong". That's baloney.

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by Wally

The Ford hypermilers are playing up the AFM on the 6.0 for all it's worth, but it doesn't seem to be turning sales away. I suspect the increase sales are more through brand awareness than brand loyalty.... of course brand loyalty is a dirty coin of phrase here and only applies to Holden owners.

AFM isn't the be all and end all as half the V8 sales are tied to manuals... which are devoid of any AFM feature. And HSV don't use it either.

[Bluepower]

Originally Posted by XplosiveR6

kudos to holden for what? being lucky thier parent company upgrades their dispacement of their V8s every year for holden to simply import them and throw into their commodore, and happens to be their only performance motor they offer. Yea sounds like alot of effort.
Where as ford developed in house their turbocharged I6 and still offered a competitive V8 which is assembled and engineered somewhat here, which they dont need 6.0l to perform good power levels.
Ford Aus obviously spend alot more on R&D on their performance motors then holden for such a small market its such a great effort.
We should be greatfull these companys give us such huge options. But some people will never be happy.

Right and wrong, its good for GM to bring such a product into Australia, the net result is good sales and more importantly resale figures.

Holden didn't have to release anything better, in 98,99,00,01,02,03,04,05,06,07,08 and 09 Ford have been playing catchup. The turbo 6 isn't even included here.......thank god for the T6 or Ford probably wouldn't get a mention in any of the mags.......

You want to talk about innovation? Why didn't ford make a 6.0 all alloy deal and turn the tables for once? The ford V8 in aus would be a giant killer and the FPV engine assembly area would look busy, instead of a vacant area where we could play indoor footy.

I spoke to Lee andrew recently, 2IC at FPV, and the conversation was fairly flat. He admitted to me that no warranty will be given to any Boss owner if they have an exhaust of any kind fitted by dealer or otherwise, no matter what. Talk to Holden and they will SUPPORT a client if they want to make the car sound like a real V8. Ford are not even putting up a fight. very sad indeed.

Ford have to learn. I hope holden will continue to smash Ford in V8 sales, if Ford wont listen to its customer base, perhaps they will listen to their Balance sheet.

[Swordsman88]

I'm not sure how this debate got so off topic (i highly doubt Holden's V8 sales are this high purely because Ford's V8 is supposedly so uncompetitive) but i would make one point. So far in this thread some of the main theories put forward for the continued sales performance of holden's V8s are:

1. Availability accross the commodore lineup (not just performance)
2. Actual or percieved superiority over the Ford V8 (boss predominantly, but carry over from the 230 days)
3. V6 is rubbish and private buyers especially go for the V8
4. AFM, marketing or actual.

It would appear that while options 1,2,4 are well understood, with everyone having an opinion, the issue of the V6 stands out as one that everyone downplays. The question i have is this....Since the E series days the ford 6 has been very well recieved, in fact outperforming the V8s of the day (this continues with the I6T), both Fords and often Holdens V8 too (think BA XR6T versus VX-Y SS). Everyone points out that the poor sales of the ford V8 is because the I6T is so dominant in a range of areas particulary performance. Yet no-one acepts the same premise (in reverse) for Holden.

If I was a Holden fan and went into a dealership to test drive an SV6, and was thoroughly disappointed in it, what would i do? Assuming i can't bring myself to buy a Ford, i'm probably going to lobby that dealer hard to get a SS.... I think Holden knows damn well the alloytec is not a performance engine, not even close. They know that without well priced V8s they would struggle to retain the bogan faithful, let alone the swing buyers. The deals out there on base SS commodores would make guys who bought V8 commodores even 5 years ago weep in their beards. I know a guy who has just bought a second SS....one auto one manual. Massive holden fan, got both dirt cheap. How many guys 10 years whose only 2 cars are both V8 holdens??

If and when Ford releases the coyote based V8 i think Holden will have very few places to hide RE their commodore lineup. The release of a DI alloytec might help out...but i'd doubt it can match the FG I6 NA let alone the I6T.

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

You want to talk about innovation? Why didn't ford make a 6.0 all alloy deal and turn the tables for once? The ford V8 in aus would be a giant killer and the FPV engine assembly area would look busy, instead of a vacant area where we could play indoor footy.

I'll admit it would have been nice but I believe the reason they didn't and GM did is that Ford didn't want to spend the money on development. Whilst GM did spend the money, they also went bust and ford have continued to trade without bailouts from the US government so in a way, ford did the right thing.

[Wally]

Now that is streching a very long bow. :hihi:

[ltd]

Originally Posted by Wally

Now that is streching a very long bow. :hihi:

I'm not trying to be a jerk I'm just stating what I believe to be fact. One had a better V8 and went bust, the other kept the same old engine and kept trading.

[4Vman]

Originally Posted by Wally

True. The general public don't buy on the basis of who's lump is better, they buy on car looks and how it feels to them. Just like many here refuse to like the look of the VE, there are many out there who don't like the look of the FG.

The Ford hypermilers are playing up the AFM on the 6.0 for all it's worth, but it doesn't seem to be turning sales away. I suspect the increase sales are more through brand awareness than brand loyalty.... of course brand loyalty is a dirty coin of phrase here and only applies to Holden owners.

Wally i wish there was much more brand awareness rather than brand loyalty, if there was Ford would outsell holden quite comfortably...

[Falc'man]

Originally Posted by Bluepower

You want to talk about innovation? Why didn't ford make a 6.0 all alloy deal and turn the tables for once? The ford V8 in aus would be a giant killer and the FPV engine assembly area would look busy, instead of a vacant area where we could play indoor footy.

To put it simply the Mustang didn't have much competition for quite a while, so there was no need to worry about the V8's performance during that period. In other words, the Modular didn't evolve fast enough. The only decent improvements, n/a wise, came from FPV.

Close to 8 years have passed and we're still talking about the what-ifs. Next year this will end.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Wally i wish there was much more brand awareness rather than brand loyalty, if there was Ford would outsell holden quite comfortably...

I'm sure you do. The trouble with brand/blind loyalty is that it benefits the one with the biggest fan base. I'm not an arbitrator on what appeals to different people. I also admit I really don't understand why it's important for owners to see Ford or Holden out do each other in the sales race; if I like a car I buy it regardless of fanboys.

Personally I think the FG should have taken more design cues from the Jap/Euro/VE brigade, especially in relation to the guards; I find it a bit ho hum to look at, which kinda belies what's under the skin.

[fte50]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

Without wanting to sound too harsh, I find it hard to believe the V6 engines come out of the factory that way. Not when the engines are essentially produced by machines with strict tolerances.

You kind of lost me when you stated "the bore/stroke ratio is awfully wrong". That's baloney.

Harsh - Good point. You ever tried revving a Holden V6?
Believe as you like, but when your local management are simply not management material, what hope is there for quality. Secondly, they have tried too run so many variants (export etc) on the 1 ***. line, they have continually mixed components etc, not forgetting that for many of the proccess workers (no disrespect to them) they dont know the difference from an intake valve to a ball valve. There simply isnt any ownership.
As for the machines tolerances, lets just say that they WERE/ARE the cheapest machine tooling option available at the time for that particular purpose and tolerances are now somewhat of a dismal memory. Im sure you would also love to know that the machines had error proofing stations to reduce scrap rates and improve quality etc, but guess what - m.e. (manufacturing engineering) removed them.
Finally, if you dont get what i mean about bore/stroke ratio, do some learning and grow a moustache first before you pass judgement and decide somethings baloney. Simple as that.

[Falc'man]

roflmao

[fte50]

Originally Posted by Swordsman88

I'm not sure how this debate got so off topic (i highly doubt Holden's V8 sales are this high purely because Ford's V8 is supposedly so uncompetitive) but i would make one point. So far in this thread some of the main theories put forward for the continued sales performance of holden's V8s are:

1. Availability accross the commodore lineup (not just performance)
2. Actual or percieved superiority over the Ford V8 (boss predominantly, but carry over from the 230 days)
3. V6 is rubbish and private buyers especially go for the V8
4. AFM, marketing or actual.

It would appear that while options 1,2,4 are well understood, with everyone having an opinion, the issue of the V6 stands out as one that everyone downplays. The question i have is this....Since the E series days the ford 6 has been very well recieved, in fact outperforming the V8s of the day (this continues with the I6T), both Fords and often Holdens V8 too (think BA XR6T versus VX-Y SS). Everyone points out that the poor sales of the ford V8 is because the I6T is so dominant in a range of areas particulary performance. Yet no-one acepts the same premise (in reverse) for Holden.

If I was a Holden fan and went into a dealership to test drive an SV6, and was thoroughly disappointed in it, what would i do? Assuming i can't bring myself to buy a Ford, i'm probably going to lobby that dealer hard to get a SS.... I think Holden knows damn well the alloytec is not a performance engine, not even close. They know that without well priced V8s they would struggle to retain the bogan faithful, let alone the swing buyers. The deals out there on base SS commodores would make guys who bought V8 commodores even 5 years ago weep in their beards. I know a guy who has just bought a second SS....one auto one manual. Massive holden fan, got both dirt cheap. How many guys 10 years whose only 2 cars are both V8 holdens??

If and when Ford releases the coyote based V8 i think Holden will have very few places to hide RE their commodore lineup. The release of a DI alloytec might help out...but i'd doubt it can match the FG I6 NA let alone the I6T.

Your on the money when you say the V6 is known to not be a performance engine. There have been 'various' inhouse programs to liven its performance, however apart from direct injection, every other option moves away from being naturally aspirated. The big prob with that though is the insurance premium hike on whats essentially marketed as a family car.

A point worth noting that seems to be overlooked is company lease cars. Holden for example, lease all their company cars to employees. However, because the commodore is locally built anlike the rest of its range, its actually cheaper to lease. Most employees either lease an Omega LPG or SS. Simply 1 or the other. What does this mean for sales - well not much but notforgetting the car had to be registered therefore falling under the monthly sales tally. Holdens lease expiry is at a lower km frequency aswell therefore turning over more cars per anum.
The biggest prob when you read these sales tallies is the fact that they dont differentiate the proportionate difference between fleet and retail public.
Hell, why wouldnt you get a gas guzzling pig on a novated lease with a fuel card?
so the question remains - How manny cars really ARE BEING 'SOLD'?

[snappy]

The other thing is holden take risks and quite often they pay off .
When holden make a special model its either a 2 door, awd or just a monster under the bonnet . There bringing out lpg hsv's will also kill in sales i believe , they have afm not important if it works or not it does sell cars and to them its all that is important.
What does ford do whack a new set of sticker's on it.
The bring out a new model and it looks okay but thats it ,until we modify them anyway. I quite sure to have a sucessful design you need a 80% approval , ford has not got anywhere near that.
An all though we are getting closer in sales , Holdens new model will be out soon and ford will be stuffed .
An this thread is a good example of how happy we ford fans are because we have just got a new model and we are already waiting for the next model because we are hoping it will be somthing we want to buy .

An to add insult to injury Holden are/has opened up a customizing plant for the next model , So when this vf arrives when you buy it you can choose your wheels, spoilers and other things . Is it just me or is that just a good bloody idea.
As for brand loyalty it works both ways because i think ford may lose a few more sales if there was no loyalty.
An if ford dont bring out a kick a#*e v8 soon they better send

[SSbaby]

Originally Posted by fte50

Harsh - Good point. You ever tried revving a Holden V6?
Believe as you like, but when your local management are simply not management material, what hope is there for quality. Secondly, they have tried too run so many variants (export etc) on the 1 ***. line, they have continually mixed components etc, not forgetting that for many of the proccess workers (no disrespect to them) they dont know the difference from an intake valve to a ball valve. There simply isnt any ownership.
As for the machines tolerances, lets just say that they WERE/ARE the cheapest machine tooling option available at the time for that particular purpose and tolerances are now somewhat of a dismal memory. Im sure you would also love to know that the machines had error proofing stations to reduce scrap rates and improve quality etc, but guess what - m.e. (manufacturing engineering) removed them.
Finally, if you dont get what i mean about bore/stroke ratio, do some learning and grow a moustache first before you pass judgement and decide somethings baloney. Simple as that.

You should probably check some bore/stroke ratios on other V6s before you decide to harshly criticise GM's V6 engine design. Toyota and Nissan 3.5 V6s have a similar bore/stroke ratio... and similar power/torque too!

I've definitely revved the Alloytec all the way to its near 7000rpm redline... around Sandown raceway using the paddle gears. Seamless, smooth and powerful (for a V6) once on song are the thoughts that spring to mind.

It's not worth my time and effort discussing this topic further as you're clearly very familiar with the problems on the production line. What I will say is that it's not exactly easy to keep a lid on engine problems such as those you describe, particularly for a common car like the VE with the V6. And I haven't heard of any major dramas with that engine, neither here or abroad.

[vztrt]

Originally Posted by snappy84

The other thing is holden take risks and quite often they pay off .
When holden make a special model its either a 2 door, awd or just a monster under the bonnet .

I'd say its a 50/50 win.

W427..loss, adventura...loss, crewman...loss, awd coupe....loss, s/c v6 not really successful, even the monaro wasn't really a success.

Holden did well putting the LS motor into the Commo, after the piston slap issue was resolved it is a good option for the customer. Also like our I6 it responds well to mods, and modding is dirt cheap for the power gain.

[Wally]

Originally Posted by SSbaby

You should probably check some bore/stroke ratios on other V6s before you decide to harshly criticise GM's V6 engine design.

I must admit. I was wondering what the bore to stroke ratio had to do with the engine being a dud.

[Polyal]

We can hardly sit here and blame holden for dumping the LS motors in; we are about to do a similar thing. Smart economics if you ask me.

Its amazing how holden gets away with its "Australianess", because the way it has been managed over the last 10 years smacks of US decision making and now they are in the poo.

The one thing they have going for them (but as above it can hurt) is the balls to have a go, imagine right now if they decided to not to the sportswagon; id love to see how many of those are selling.