Ba Gtho - Page 2

dansedgli · 20-07-2005, 05:04 PM

Mmm that is nice, I want one!!

I would imagine ford will be using the 5.4 for a while now wont they?

If only the mustangs were popular here. I love the mustangs, every time I see one on the road I nearly crash my CBR from staring at them.

parawolf · 20-07-2005, 05:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by YCA

Thanks for the input people. I am amazed at some of the comments but am still glad they are up there. I think that there is always a need for a luxury tourer in Aus that has the legs and grunt to take you anywhere in our big country. No need for a great top speed (240 would do) this is why I have a tricked up Suzuki GSXR1300 Hayabusa, top speed down Gardner straight at Philip Island 320klms.
If we are going to re vamp the GTHO badge though we need it to be special.

So what is wrong with the current GT-P in your view? Seriously, think like FPV accountants for a second. We have some of the tightest road rules in the world, and some the of vastest distances between capital cities in the world. Effective top speed is 110km/h apart from certain roads.

So what do you build?

You build a high torque engine, in a comfortable body package which allows the driver and passengers to just eat up the kilometres at no more than 110km/h. This covers 99.9% of the public roads in Australia. You need good around town manners which covers 95% of the population, and you need it to build a good public image as a "Total Performance"(inc) brand.

How does the current GT-P not fit that casting? The answer is it does perfectly, and FPV have been massively successful at this. The FPV V8's have been a run away success. They are lust worthy, perform hard and are great to drive.

FPV took their first risk building the F6. Unfortunately it had a massive public failing, otherwise it would have taken the Australian performance sedan to new ideas. Now that its back on the road, it has some massive public image issues to rebuild.

Once that is sorted, then it is time for FPV to rebuild the V8's for the next level of performance, and I just don't mean FPV MKIII. FPV will gamble on the next packaging step as the XR8 is in need of a leg up, so will XR6 and XR6T. So that means after MKIII, expect more from FPV, however within the current line up.

With the "All New Falcon(tm)" there will be chassis upgrades, material upgrades, handling upgrades and performance upgrades. After this, then and ONLY then i'd suggest that we might see an F8 Sprint.

This is how I see FPV's risk register running.

eb2fairmont · 20-07-2005, 06:26 PM

Okay about the stripper thing.....(yeah I can hear the joke).

The GTHO was designed to do one thing. Win Bathurst. Agreed, it did have all the fairmont trimmings, which add weight. But it's primary goal was performance, regardless of whether you take the official "handling option" or the unofficial "High output" line.

A modern GTHO needs to have grunt written all over it. It basically needs to be a sledgehammer in acceleration and handle pretty damn fine. Both are enhanced by reducing weight, as is fuel economy. Top speed should not be part of the equation to avoid all the safety nazis, and should be limited to 250 kph. That 'limited' nature would only add to the mystique of the car, much as the phase III being limited to 6100 rpm.

So why the obsession about weight? We all know the Boss is detuned, and easily supercharged. No great deal - and there's plenty of power there for a GTHO. But a GTHO could (and should) act as a technology leader in it's field. It should preview weight reduction technologies that flow down to later model Falcons. Same things happened throughout the 70's and things learnt through the GTHO program filtered down to everyday stuff. The XC 1/2 was a good example when holden was trumphing RTS, and Ford responded with it's handling package drawn from GTHO experience.

The GTHO is performance, and it should refelect the highest possible levels of it. Therefore it should be a stripper to appeal to a select few, with expensive weight reduction technology, to make it expensive so that exclusivity is maintained.

It needs to be pure mongrel like the 427 monaro concept.

David

Steffo · 20-07-2005, 06:59 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by eb2fairmont

We all know the Boss is detuned

No we don't. I've never ever heard FPV say that the Boss is de-tuned. In fact, they've been saying quite the opposite.

4Vman · 20-07-2005, 07:01 PM

Ford are in the numbers game, I.E: build as many cars as they can for the biggest possible profit.
If someone can demonstrate to them that there is a GENUINE market for a vehicle above the current GT/GT-P product that they can make good profit from Ford will listen, but the big question is : IS THERE A MARKET FOR SUCH A CAR?

My feeling is NO, look at it logically.
The premier motorsport class is V8 Supercars, these vehicles are related by shape only to their roadcar cousins.
There is NO reason to build a homologation race special (like the original HO's) at all, so there goes the GTHO theory.

Secondly people say they want more performance from the GT? ok, at what cost? my guess is to ad 50KW of power you'll ad $50K+ to the price of the vehicle once you add it to a complementry package and amortise the significant R+D and prototype testing costs.
It would also be reliant on Ford being able to move a certain number of vehicles, remember, the original GT-HO's were a sales FAILURE... they struggled to sell them and they went out at a loss...
With the current FPV range selling so well i really cant see Ford going out on a limb for the sake of 100 cars... HSV did the math, it didnt ad up, i doubt it would for Ford either.
Dont forget, the current range is damn quick in its own right, there will be opposition to 300KW+ in Australia.
I read lots of posts saying "i want this" or "ford must make that" but the reality is how many of you calling for such a vehicle would put down 100K RIGHT NOW to buy one??? not many id say....
Allot of fantasy talk but not allot of $$$ ready to spend.
The aftermarket caters nicely for the current range and at about 10% of the cost campared to if Ford did it, this is possibly another reason that scares Ford off..

My feeling is if Ford haven't already built the car then its because they dont believe there is a justifiable market for it.....

Oh by the way, ive got a fully refundable $2K deposit at my Ford dealer should a HO ever re-surface

4Vman · 20-07-2005, 07:05 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

No we don't. I've never ever heard FPV say that the Boss is de-tuned. In fact, they've been saying quite the opposite.

Steffo, by de tuned i think people mean its lacking evolutionary improvements. 4 valves per cylinder DOHC is significantly better technology than 2 valve push rod.
Look at F1 technology, all DOHC multi valve, the potential of the boss motor is un tapped when you consider its in the infantsy of its existance and nobody has really done any head or cam work yet! :1syellow1

Steffo · 20-07-2005, 07:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

4 valves per cylinder DOHC is significantly better technology than 2 valve push rod.

Lets not start that little argument again...

On to the Boss.. haven't FPV themselves said that the only way they'll be seeing any significant improvements from the thing is forced induction?

parawolf · 20-07-2005, 07:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

On to the Boss.. haven't FPV themselves said that the only way they'll be seeing any significant improvements from the thing is forced induction?

Actually I believe the statement was closer to the use of supercharging, "Why would we want to take a step backwards technologically".

Something to that effect anyway on the discussion of a forced V8.

Psycho Chicken · 20-07-2005, 07:35 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Perhaps it would be wise to wait for HSV to make a move, and then.. well, better them?

Jesus christ, since when did you work at FPV?!

4Vman · 20-07-2005, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Lets not start that little argument again...

On to the Boss.. haven't FPV themselves said that the only way they'll be seeing any significant improvements from the thing is forced induction?

There's no arguement, its common sense.
The more modern technology is better, its not a critisism of the past, its just the way things evolve and move forward.
4 valve offers many advantages over 2 of which improved induction efficiency and better port placement and head design is a big part.
Forced induction is a cheap way of gaining power.
290KW from 5.4L is pretty damn world class, HSV need 6L to get 297 kw, and by all reports its struggling to make that.
The euro stuff needs Forced induction to get more grunt too.
Id say on a world scale the 5.4 Boss is a damn fine motor.

Deadman · 20-07-2005, 07:38 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

My feeling is if Ford haven't already built the car then its because they dont believe there is a justifiable market for it.....

I aggree a lot with what you say. But Ford / FPV have been saying for a while that they 'hear' what customers are asking for (a car like this). I believe they WILL build a near $100k car. It's just a matter of when.

4Vman · 20-07-2005, 07:40 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

I aggree a lot with what you say. But Ford / FPV have been saying for a while that they 'hear' what customers are asking for (a car like this). I believe they WILL build a near $100k car. It's just a matter of when.

Who are they hearing from?
Are customers REALLY asking for a $100K car??? Will people REALLY put their money where their mouth is? that's the big question im sure Ford are pondering :1syellow1

parawolf · 20-07-2005, 07:44 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Who are they hearing from?
Are customers REALLY asking for a $100K car??? Will people REALLY put their money where their mouth is? that's the big question im sure Ford are pondering

See thats the thing - I don't see a F8 Sprint costing $100k.

Seeing as it isn't 'range topping' for all segments (luxury for one) and its warranty will be heavily constrained versus a regular FPV it won't be the highest costing car. I'd forsee about $75k + onroads.

4Vman · 20-07-2005, 07:49 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parawolf

See thats the thing - I don't see a F8 Sprint costing $100k.

Seeing as it isn't 'range topping' for all segments (luxury for one) and its warranty will be heavily constrained versus a regular FPV it won't be the highest costing car. I'd forsee about $75k + onroads.

That will greatly depend on its specification, if you imporve the power you add enourmous R+D costs, every single part of the driveline and suspension will need re designing or evaluating to see how it copes, its very difficult to convey the significant costs associated with small changes but Ford are well aware of it, change has a domino effect, change one area and it effects another, add a bit of power and suspension bushes might break etc etc... Look how much the F6 clutch thing cost to fix and that was without any power change, it was all R+D costs.
Ford are bound but "worlds best practice" standards and their ISO acreditation, anyone who's been involved with ISO 9001/2 will know the costs of compliance.

RED_EL_XR8 · 20-07-2005, 07:54 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Lets not start that little argument again...

On to the Boss.. haven't FPV themselves said that the only way they'll be seeing any significant improvements from the thing is forced induction?

Its a young engine, Windsors many times have surpassed output that had previously been said to be impossible. Its more a case of what is practically possible for a manufacturer stifled by ADRs and EPA rules, price constraints etc.

I know in steffo world you can bolt on bits made from the most exotic materials known to man and achieve insane horsepowers, but wet dreams over and back to real world, its what is practical and affordable.

The improvements most needed by Boss are not raw output numbers (after market is catering nicely for that) what's most needed is refinenment of what's already there, more balanced delivery through the entire rev range and a drive train more able to cope with the power already available could see an end to all the nanny intervention from ECU's.

Listening to those on here in the know, rather than the dreamers and naval gazers it appears that's most likely what any new GTHO will be, it wont be bucket loads of horsepower in an ill handling box. It wont be a sissy either whether NA or forced.

parawolf · 20-07-2005, 08:04 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

That will greatly depend on its specification, if you imporve the power you add enourmous R+D costs, every single part of the driveline and suspension will need re designing or evaluating to see how it copes, its very difficult to convey the significant costs associated with small changes but Ford are well aware of it. Look how much the F6 clutch thing cost to fix and that was without any power change, it was all R+D costs.

And, if my sources are right - thats because FPV ignored direct advice from AP Racing saying "that won't work".

As one of my previous messages said, the forecast for an F8 Sprint, is about 2 - 3 years time, i figure there will be a suitable crate engine in that timeframe at a minimum. If the chassis was light enough, the 5.0L Cammer engines would be perfect - but at the moment, they just provide a perfect example of the theory that should be used to this model. This is also why I referenced the Concept Mustang GT-R.

I'd figure that in 2 - 3 years, all the engineering is done. Lets see:

All New Falcon/FPV(tm) will have:
Improved Tremec T-56 transmission
Double Plate high torque AP Racing clutch.
Improved LSD's
Improved chassis, in terms of strength, stiffness and weight
Improved suspension

From there it is a matter of locating a suitable engine in the Ford lineup (2007 Mustang Shelby Cobra GT500 with a 5.4Litre V8 and Supercharger anyone?) and then upgrading the rest with bolt ons

Now, i understand it is not that simple - but gee it isn't as hard as you suggest.

4Vman · 20-07-2005, 08:06 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by RED_EL_XR8

Its a young engine, Windsors many times have surpassed output that had previously been said to be impossible. Its more a case of what is practically possible for a manufacturer stifled by ADRs and EPA rules, price constraints etc.

I know in steffo world you can bolt on bits made from the most exotic materials known to man and achieve insane horsepowers, but wet dreams over and back to real world, its what is practicical and affordable.

The improvements most needed by Boss are not raw output numbers (after market is catering nicely for that) what's most needed is refinenment of what's already there, more balanced delivery through the entire rev range and a drive train more able to cope with the power already available could see an end to all the nanny intervention from ECU's.

Listening to those on here in the know, rather than the dreamers and naval gazers it appears that's most likely what any new GTHO will be, it wont be bucket loads of horsepower in an ill handling box. It wont be a sissy either whether NA or forced.

Exactly, the other considerations people forget about is that the BA and Boss motors both pass the stringent new safety and emmissions laws coming into play soon. One of the reasons the BA cost so much is because the outgoing AU didnt pass so the changes to the motor and body were needed.
The extra weight of the BA is largely as a result of the newe safer design, extra reinforcements to pass these safety tests were needed, it isnt an option to leave them out, now Ford will spend time methodically refining the product.
As the EPA standards get tighter it will get harder and harder to make KW's so power output is effected by it too.
We are lucky though, the BA/ Boss partnership is complient for the future, something Holden cant say yet and has spelt the end of the Gen3 which wont pass, and the revamp of a heavier dunny door..

parawolf · 20-07-2005, 08:10 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

Exactly, the other considerations people forget about is that the BA and Boss motors both pass the stringent new safety and emmissions laws coming into play soon.

Hence, using a 'global' off the shelf motor that already aligns itself with worlds best practice.

/me points again to the 2007 Shelby Cobra GT500 motor...

Steffo · 20-07-2005, 08:15 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by parawolf

Hence, using a 'global' off the shelf motor that already aligns itself with worlds best practice.

/me points again to the 2007 Shelby Cobra GT500 motor...

Mmm.. that engine would be perfect.. 450hp 450ftlbs (336kW 610Nm)... and easily alot more

:

Deadman · 20-07-2005, 08:23 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

Mmm.. that engine would be perfect.. 450hp 450ftlbs (336kW 610Nm)... and easily alot more

:

bugger that... Give us the Ford GT's 5.4 V8 engine... 410kW 687Nm :evilking:

4Vman · 20-07-2005, 08:37 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Ford_Falcon_XR6

bugger that... Give us the Ford GT's 5.4 V8 engine... 410kW 687Nm :evilking:

We already have most of it with the Boss motor anyway!! Same family of engines!

parawolf · 20-07-2005, 09:02 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by 4Vman

We already have most of it with the Boss motor anyway!! Same family of engines!

Actually we have very little of it. We don't have any of the internals, the heads, the block, the crank, the induction, the flywheel, the front mount accessories, the cam shafts, the valves, the sump, the lubrication system.

Gee, about all we have in common is the bore and stroke really. :Up_to_som

LTDHO · 21-07-2005, 08:54 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Steffo

HSV Clubsport
HSV Clubsport R8
HSV GTS300

So.. our range would look something like

FPV GT
FPV GT-P
FPV GT-HO

and then if you want the stripper.. FPV F8 Sprint (HSV SV6000 competitior I guess). Would make a very complete range if you ask me. Doesn't have to be the GT-HO name, can be something else, like FPV GT Ghia or something (can't think of a name right now.. but you get the idea).

I would like to see the the GT-P based on Ghia and the HO based on Faimont with alot more power and handling. Not just bigger wing, it would have to have practical air dam, etc, similar to the actual race car.

But one thing that has been mentioned it the LWB. HSV have Grange and they are awesome, what do Ford have? Nothing So if you want a LWB performance car, build one or buy HSV as Ford/FPV do not have one, the Fairlane 220 was close but no where near close to the Grange 255! Not to mention the current 297 Grange!!

Steffo · 21-07-2005, 11:00 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

But one thing that has been mentioned it the LWB. HSV have Grange and they are awesome, what do Ford have? Nothing So if you want a LWB performance car, build one or buy HSV as Ford/FPV do not have one, the Fairlane 220 was close but no where near close to the Grange 255! Not to mention the current 297 Grange!!

They may be a bit causcious about entering the LWB performance segment. Remember how much of a failure the TL50 was, even in its best form, T3? The T3 TL50 was faster then the 255kW HSV Grange, but it sold, well, not half as much. Although, if they make an LWB, they should make the FPV Galaxie 540 concept come to life..

sfr rob · 21-07-2005, 06:16 PM

hey, i havent read much of this thread... BUT

i was transporting some brake calipers the other week to get STAMPED with a logo, i looked at the delivery docket and read down the bottom stamp=GTHO. hmmmmm?
the calipers were from another factory where they do the new mustangs too.

all i will say.

Psycho Chicken · 21-07-2005, 06:55 PM

Be careful, I bet there's a clause somewhere that you can't say that. I'd be checking with your bosses before you go saying anything.

sfr rob · 21-07-2005, 07:10 PM

i am my own boss...
so i can say what i like
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

:

didnt say anything in great detail... just that i saw what i saw.. and thought you guys would want to know.

EA_Bender · 21-07-2005, 07:22 PM

I work for a large courier company that ships alot of ford bits, when ever the guys ring up for a shipment, i ask about the GTHO, they go quiet and um and arr about it. i ask by them saying nothing that it means something.... and they laugh like theyre trying to hide something... read into that what u may....

The MaDDeSTMaN · 21-07-2005, 08:29 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by LTDHO

I can not see Ford having the guts to do it!

Thats what I think, Ford won't do it, same as I doubt they'll ever produce anything in the small car market anything like the old RS Escorts - NOT FWD. I still think that there would be enough interest in something the size of a Focus or Mk II Escort, RWD (and/or AWD), decent gearing, turbo 4 or V6, weight under 1000kg or as close to it as possible, 0-100km/h in under 8 seconds. But I know it'll never happen... :(

Steffo · 21-07-2005, 08:32 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by The MaDDeSTMaN

Thats what I think, Ford won't do it, same as I doubt they'll ever produce anything in the small car market anything like the old RS Escorts - NOT FWD. I still think that there would be enough interest in something the size of a Focus or Mk II Escort, RWD (and/or AWD), decent gearing, turbo 4 or V6, weight under 1000kg or as close to it as possible, 0-100km/h in under 8 seconds. But I know it'll never happen... :(

The old Focus RS met all those requirements except for the AWD or RWD part. Hell, the ST170 met most of them. The new turbo 5cyl RS will be a stormer too. If you ask me, they've got the small car department covered. The 5cyl RS will be, from what I understand, the fastest, best handling car in its class.