WS Fiesta - Alternative Long Term Review - Page 2

Fez WQ · 16-03-2012, 11:57 PM

Too True

kabukiman · 11-04-2012, 11:00 PM

my 2 cents.

I own a WT LX fiesta. I've had problems with it since day one. Namely the powershift transmission is broken and constantly fails. It has been this way for a long while, and I know it, and so does an independent mechanic who has ridden in the car, but Ford keep pushing me out the door saying it's 'within spec'

I can echo your awful experiences with ford and their service. They are next to useless. They haven't managed to fix a single damn thing on my car, and most of them are simple things like rattles I've been able to fix myself. In fact they've made it worse and once they damaged it.

The car is less than a year old, from its build date, not delivery. I've hardly had it that long. I've lost count how many times it's been off the road.

Basically my transmission is very musical, and breaks down a lot. Two different Ford dealers and both have treated me the same. I tell them it's a problem on longer drives when it gets hot, so they drive it around the block and give it back saying it's fine. I had it for five days at once dealer and all they did was less than 10kms, and told me "we tested it thouroughly in as many different condition as we could and could not fault it". At that time they failed to rectify some interior rattles (I told them the handbrake cover rattled, I pointed to it and said the word handbrake several times, when I got it back they told me they adjusted a seat belt buckle...)

After that it had been to a dealer several more times including for one recallibration, which did **** all.

They have told me every Fiesta has a design flaw in the carpet. Mine peels away from the body of the car so you can see metal near the center console. They replaced the entire carpet assembly after I pressed them, but they damaged several interior panels, and the carpet still did not fit. Rather than have another go as I suggested they turned around and said every Fiesta is like that. So I asked, why did you agree it was a problem in the first place and replace it?

It took two months and some pain, but I got one of the panels replaced. I asked for two but they couldnt manage it, I think they replaced a perfectly good one by mistake.

There have been a few times where I have taken the car in to have noises looked at, and they say they can't fault it, and when I pick the car up from their parking lot it has the radio up loud. Go figure...

My clutches both slip now, and the car has stalled several times. All they've managed to do, again after pressing and calls and emails to customer service, is a recallibration. I saw it coming... it achieved nothing.

Right now luckily I have an independent mechanic who is friends with someone at a dealer helping me. He knows it needs proper work, and so the guy at Ford is pulling strings to ge my car to a proper transmission specialist under warranty, where they will actually pull and rebuild the assembly.

I shouldn't have to know someone in the company to get things done.

All the time I've owned it I've had to deal with idiots at the service department who treat me like an idiot, change their stories constantly, lie to me etc

I have to talk to them like little kids to make sure they understand what I want, and they still screw things up and forget things.

Customer service isn't helpful either. They have offered me a free service, but I've had to fight with them over things and basically all I get from them is a 'take it to the dealer' every time I complain about the dealer not fixing something and it breaking again.

They do a good job at turning customers away. None of the dealers I have been to will be getting business from me, my car is being serviced somewhere independent.

Also according to someone who checked the computer at the dealer, at both dealers I have visited nobody has logged my transmission problems on the computer system. On the system my car looks like it has never been in for warranty stuff. Not even the five days it spent sitting in a lot (when it was supposed to be tested and they told me it would have the transmission pulled and inspected) shows up. I got told this was because it saves them money and time not having certain things booked in on the computer.

Love the Fiesta but I won't buy another one unless I move to Europe where there is adequate support for the car.

Fiesta_Man69 · 17-03-2012, 09:23 AM

Amusing, isn't it?

Those making ignorant statements: "pinging isn't an issue" just "turn up those speakers" are the same ones who wikipedia and copy paste their arguements, when others actually go out and seek expert advice. I note that neither of the trio could actually find fault such a point: they just didn't like to be proven wrong. And there's no 'slagging' going on, healthy debate yes - on one side backed up by real mechanics from real workshops, the other from personal opinion and wikipedia etc....

Again, like I said: 95% of Fezs won't have a problem, but Ford's sales of the Fez (last month were half of the Mazda 2s and down on the same period last year) as well as their other models rely on Ford treating customers properly.

So whats the point? This thread is a warning to people who peruse such sites doing research before buying a car. As we all know Ford Aus does indeed monitor this site - it is also about keeping them accountable and making them (eventually) do the right thing. If a small number of die hard fans (one of which had several problems with his own DCT in his Fez) have an issue with faults being pointed out then that's their issue.

That said, I, even after this experience, clearly state that I too believe that 9 out of 10 Fezs will have no problem: no where do I make mention that only Ford make lemon cars. However, Ford's after sales service is the worst from any car company by some margin: the proof is in the pudding - if I were overexaggerating (or being oversensitive) then Dale Ford would be thriving. It isn't. The Fez would be outselling the Mazda 2 (as, in theory, it is a superior car for the same money). Again, it isn't (the 2 doubles the Fezs sales, and despite ongoing extensive advertising and cost cutting with the Thai built model, Fez sales are markedly down on the same period last year).

Ford must stop acting like the net doesn't exist and treat its customers like it actually wants their repeat business, otherwise thousands of Aussie jobs will be gone - Dale Ford will not be the last Sydney dealership to fold this year, I can assure you.

robjh80 · 17-03-2012, 10:08 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Ford must stop acting like the net doesn't exist and treat its customers like it actually wants their repeat business, otherwise thousands of Aussie jobs will be gone - Dale Ford will not be the last Sydney dealership to fold this year, I can assure you.

Absolutely spot on mate! ..

I have been looking around for a new car to replace the XR4 for the past month, visiting dealerships of various makes.

The salespeople in general are upbeat, helpful and willing to do what is required to do the deal ... apart from Ford Dealerships that is!

I went out to Denmac at Darra up here in Brisbane a couple of weeks ago to look at a White Focus Titanium, which I was assured over the phone was there to be viewed, ( I particularly wanted to see a White one), ... on our arrival the salesman who was nice enough young bloke didn't know if they had a White one?

So we went for a walk down the into the back paddock where they store all their stock ... well, there must have been at least an acre of land out the back full of brand new cars bumper to bumper wth the grass growing up between them! .. obviously they we going to have to shift all this stock somehow? ... indidently after walking around between these cars for about half an hour is was evident that indeed, ... they didn't have a White Titanium in stock!

And yet ... in the whole time we were there at the dealership, maybe a couple of hours we only saw 2 other people wander onto the lot .. and this was around 11.00am on a Saturday morning! .. presumably one of the busiest times of any dealerships week!

After the Sales Manager, (who incidently couldn't be bothered to surface from the slumbar in his office to even meet an actual, genuine, real life, breathing customer) insulted me with a ridiculous trade-in figure on my mint condition XR4 by relaying this insult through the poor young salesman he had running around like a trained monkey! ... we proceeded to leave.

It was at this point the Sales Manager "finally" surfaced from his office (he must have been beaten by Microsoft Solitaire again?) ... that he then sprayed his parting smart-*** comment to me whilst illustrating his displeasure at me not signing up to his ridiculous offer ... "So we can't do business today hey .. Oh well .. GOOD LUCK!" .. insinuating that we wouldn't get a better deal than his offer.

My reply? ... I simply paused for a moment as I looked around this completely empty dealership and said, ... "Good Luck? .. Yea, Good Luck to you mate! .. I'll look forward to the closing down sale!"

In contrast we then left there and went down to Keema Hyundai at Springwood to look at the Elantra Premium .. the whole place was buzzing .. there were people everywhere, all the salespeople were flat out, we had to wait for about half and hour before a salesperson was finally available to speak with us! ... we went for a test drive, no issues, very professional, no smart-*** attitude, no hard sell, they simply printed us off a quote with a $2500 discount straight off the bat without any negotiating at all, ... and we were on our way.

If Ford do not address the issue they have at their dealership networks ... and quickly! .. in my opinion the dealerships will systematically drop off the radar one by one over the next few years ... wake up Ford Australia!, you simply cannot continue to trade in this manner any longer! .. it is completely un-sustainable in this modern competitive world we live in today .. sort out your dealerships before it's too late.

dannyhilton · 20-03-2012, 11:35 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robjh80

Absolutely spot on mate! ..

I have been looking around for a new car to replace the XR4 for the past month, visiting dealerships of various makes.

The salespeople in general are upbeat, helpful and willing to do what is required to do the deal ... apart from Ford Dealerships that is!

I went out to Denmac at Darra up here in Brisbane a couple of weeks ago to look at a White Focus Titanium, which I was assured over the phone was there to be viewed, ( I particularly wanted to see a White one), ... on our arrival the salesman who was nice enough young bloke didn't know if they had a White one?

So we went for a walk down the into the back paddock where they store all their stock ... well, there must have been at least an acre of land out the back full of brand new cars bumper to bumper wth the grass growing up between them! .. obviously they we going to have to shift all this stock somehow? ... indidently after walking around between these cars for about half an hour is was evident that indeed, ... they didn't have a White Titanium in stock!

And yet ... in the whole time we were there at the dealership, maybe a couple of hours we only saw 2 other people wander onto the lot .. and this was around 11.00am on a Saturday morning! .. presumably one of the busiest times of any dealerships week!

After the Sales Manager, (who incidently couldn't be bothered to surface from the slumbar in his office to even meet an actual, genuine, real life, breathing customer) insulted me with a ridiculous trade-in figure on my mint condition XR4 by relaying this insult through the poor young salesman he had running around like a trained monkey! ... we proceeded to leave.

It was at this point the Sales Manager "finally" surfaced from his office (he must have been beaten by Microsoft Solitaire again?) ... that he then sprayed his parting smart-*** comment to me whilst illustrating his displeasure at me not signing up to his ridiculous offer ... "So we can't do business today hey .. Oh well .. GOOD LUCK!" .. insinuating that we wouldn't get a better deal than his offer.

My reply? ... I simply paused for a moment as I looked around this completely empty dealership and said, ... "Good Luck? .. Yea, Good Luck to you mate! .. I'll look forward to the closing down sale!"

In contrast we then left there and went down to Keema Hyundai at Springwood to look at the Elantra Premium .. the whole place was buzzing .. there were people everywhere, all the salespeople were flat out, we had to wait for about half and hour before a salesperson was finally available to speak with us! ... we went for a test drive, no issues, very professional, no smart-*** attitude, no hard sell, they simply printed us off a quote with a $2500 discount straight off the bat without any negotiating at all, ... and we were on our way.

If Ford do not address the issue they have at their dealership networks ... and quickly! .. in my opinion the dealerships will systematically drop off the radar one by one over the next few years ... wake up Ford Australia!, you simply cannot continue to trade in this manner any longer! .. it is completely un-sustainable in this modern competitive world we live in today .. sort out your dealerships before it's too late.

Unfortunately, this is spot on with so many of the Ford Dealers I have dealt with. Speaking to people who’ve worked at Ford, the money is better at other dealers, so they jump ship and the trash just filters through to Ford Dealers. It’s just so upsetting, because the product is fantastic, from the Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Falcon and Territory, the Ranger and now Kuga, they’re really good cars, but the sales support just isn’t there. Ultimately, these crappy dealers will bring down the really good ones by tarnishing Fords reputation. God luck with your search though, good Ford Dealers do exist!

robjh80 · 20-03-2012, 02:26 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyhilton

God luck with your search though, good Ford Dealers do exist!

I'm sure they do mate, .. but for me the search is over.

Walked into a Honda Dealership, got a totally different purchasing experience to any Ford Dealership Iv'e ever been to! ... they were polite, professional, helpful, actually knowledgable about the product range .. non of this aggressive, stand-offish, agro, smart *** attitude that Iv'e experienced at various Ford Dealerships over the years!

Placed an order on the spot for a brand new 2012 9th Gen Civic Sport which has just been released only a couple of weeks ago ... should be ready to pick up on Friday ..

Well done Ford .. you just lost another sale!

I may be back sometime in the future once you've cleaned up your dealerships ... but I won't hold my breath in the meantime!

dannyhilton · 21-03-2012, 06:30 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by robjh80

Walked into a Honda Dealership, got a totally different purchasing experience to any Ford Dealership Iv'e ever been to! ... they were polite, professional, helpful, actually knowledgable about the product range .. non of this aggressive, stand-offish, agro, smart *** attitude that Iv'e experienced at various Ford Dealerships over the years!

Placed an order on the spot for a brand new 2012 9th Gen Civic Sport which has just been released only a couple of weeks ago ... should be ready to pick up on Friday ..

Well done Ford .. you just lost another sale!

I may be back sometime in the future once you've cleaned up your dealerships ... but I won't hold my breath in the meantime!

Congrats mate. They look like a great car!

GoesLikeAZetec · 20-03-2012, 06:39 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by dannyhilton

Unfortunately, this is spot on with so many of the Ford Dealers I have dealt with. Speaking to people who’ve worked at Ford, the money is better at other dealers, so they jump ship and the trash just filters through to Ford Dealers. It’s just so upsetting, because the product is fantastic, from the Fiesta, Focus, Mondeo, Falcon and Territory, the Ranger and now Kuga, they’re really good cars, but the sales support just isn’t there. Ultimately, these crappy dealers will bring down the really good ones by tarnishing Fords reputation. God luck with your search though, good Ford Dealers do exist!

Our dealer was just as useless. Your right about the hyundai dealers, the ones we went into bent over backwards to help. Ford dealers are slowly killing Ford Oz off I reckon. We wouldnt go into a Ford dealer again unless a 5 door fiesta ST comes out. Even then.......

Fez WQ · 17-03-2012, 05:45 PM

"Amusing, isn't it?

Those making ignorant statements: "pinging isn't an issue" just "turn up those speakers" are the same ones who wikipedia and copy paste their arguements, when others actually go out and seek expert advice. I note that neither of the trio could actually find fault such a point: they just didn't like to be proven wrong. And there's no 'slagging' going on, healthy debate yes - on one side backed up by real mechanics from real workshops, the other from personal opinion and wikipedia etc.... "

Your wrong on many accounts

I have had 3 mechanics ( 2 of them being family members and over 30 years experience each real mechanics from real workshops that are NOT out to rip me off) check the engine- The pinging is not an issue- If pinging was an issue the engine would be stuffed by now with 55000km now on the clock in my car.

How may Fiestas have stuffed engines?
I know of one thats had timing belt break... and thats about it
even running the car on 91 octane will not cause a issue other than the added noise and less power.

Once again I have own 3 Fiestas with a total of 350,000 kms on them that is a valued opinion

Franco Cozzo · 17-03-2012, 01:40 PM

I bought two cars through Essendon Ford because I used to work with one of the salesman from there at a Honda dealership (across the road lol) and he looks after me and I get trade discounts when I buy parts from their spare parts division haha.

I bought my Fiesta through Sunbury Ford, and they actually let me test drive the car even though I didn't have a license and was 17 at the time haha.

Then they got bought out, and all the old staff where fired, the new guys are a pack of assholes and treated me like crap because I look 15 when I went to buy my Focus at the time.

kevino · 17-03-2012, 02:23 PM

I think the reason for lower Fiesta sales is that Focus Ambiente is cannabalizing Fiesta sales especially at the special prices of 19990 and 20990.

Fez WQ · 17-03-2012, 05:52 PM

From another Ford website .......

The knocking sensor sends the information to the ECU which then reduces the ignition advance (timing) to stop the knocking. Knocking occurrs when the explosion takes place before the piston reaches TDC (top dead center) and is quite a descructive phenomenon for engines. If not controlled is usually creates holes in pistons. If you've driven the car for any length with this noise then it's doubtful that it is actually caused by knocking - you'd have had all sorts of problems after not many miles.

trumpy73 · 17-03-2012, 10:01 PM

So is knocking and pinging 2 different things? My engine pins horrendously on 91, pretty bad on 95 and fairly noticeably on 98. Should I be worried?

Fez WQ · 17-03-2012, 10:47 PM

The answer is NO!

Fez WQ · 17-03-2012, 10:50 PM

It is the normal sound these engine make they have a knock sensor that controls this. On 91 your engine will rattle more this is due to lower octane and this is explanied in the manual of most euro cars that are sold in Aust

Fiesta_Man69 · 18-03-2012, 10:20 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fez WQ

It is the normal sound these engine make they have a knock sensor that controls this. On 91 your engine will rattle more this is due to lower octane and this is explanied in the manual of most euro cars that are sold in Aust

I have several workshops, including Herrod Ford - who said on especially on 98 the thing should be "humming beautifully, take the car back to Ford"- that will disagree with you FezWQ.

I also don't believe any workshop has examined your car.

Why? You would have made mention of this long ago, esp. when you were wikipediaing your defence. Now you've had "family friends" look at it? Sure...

And because you know of only one Fez engine that's had a "timing belt break, that's it" - this is supposed to be a comprehensive assessment? Please. I think you should take Caydus' advice and ignore this thread from now on.

Trumpy - your engine shouldn't be making any knocking or pinging sounds.

There's an easy way to settle this, as I did early on.

If the engine is "meant" to run like this, as others claim, then go into any Ford dealer, tell them your interested in buying a used WS, same as yours, and take it for a comprehensive test drive. Do this in a few yards and if you can find several for sale with the pinging noise similar to yours then you shouldn't have anything to worry about. If, like myself, the cars you drove ran dead set quietly, smoothly with no pinging no matter how stupidly you loaded the engine, then you should be concerned, as yours is different. I think we have the same degree of serious pinging - Ford is aware of it but is backing the engines to last the warranty period - hell of a lot cheaper than a recall on all Fezs sold with the 1.6 to check, isn't it?

The long and the short of it is: the Fez was designed to run on 95, which it should do beautifully. It can run on 91, and the ECU should be able to essentially detune the engine so it doesn't lean out and ping, and on 98 you should have marginally more power and get slightly better fuel response. No where, not with any of the 3 fuels, should there be any pinging.

I'd love to be able to tell you that the noise from your engine was normal, don't worry about it, but I've driven many other Fezs that don't do it: it appears as though we're just unlucky, in the minority and Ford isn't worried about doing the right thing by us or issuing a recall for such an issue.

trumpy73 · 18-03-2012, 06:02 AM

Mine 'rattles' on 98 unless I take it really really easy. So the rattling isn't reducing the life of my engine? Is the knock sensor same as a ping sensor? If it's pinging on 98 does it mean the knock sensor isn't doing its job?

Franco Cozzo · 18-03-2012, 12:51 PM

This is odd because my WS has never rattled or made any odd noises since I've had it, and I've only ever ran it on 95.

Fiesta_Man69 · 18-03-2012, 12:57 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Big Damo

This is odd because my WS has never rattled or made any odd noises since I've had it, and I've only ever ran it on 95.

Exactly. This problem affects a small but significant number of cars, such as Trumpy's and my own. Most run smooth as, esp. on 95+ octane.

Again, proof that Fez's aren't supposed to ping. We are simply waiting for Ford to do the right thing.

Fez WQ · 18-03-2012, 09:48 PM

"I also don't believe any workshop has examined your car"

Man 69 would you like their phone numbers....... seriously get over yourself and your car

brydie76 · 19-03-2012, 07:49 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fez WQ

"I also don't believe any workshop has examined your car"

Man 69 would you like their phone numbers....... seriously get over yourself and your car

Haha, did the OP actually say that??? Pot calling the kettle black, he rattles off dealer names like they are ex girlfriends with no other proof!!!

Fiesta_Man69 · 19-03-2012, 10:18 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by brydie76

Haha, did the OP actually say that??? Pot calling the kettle black, he rattles off dealer names like they are ex girlfriends with no other proof!!!

Lol... I wish I couldn't reel off names: I wish I HADN'T bought the car from Dale Ford. And dealing with Cumberland and Sinclair hasn't been any better.

Fiesta_Man69 · 19-03-2012, 10:15 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fez WQ

"I also don't believe any workshop has examined your car"

Man 69 would you like their phone numbers....... seriously get over yourself and your car

Done. Calling your bluff. Name, number, first three digits of your rego: I'd love to hear it from a qualified mechanic's mouth that pinging is fine and will cause no damage to any engine.

Though I am confused: I swore you were going to ignore this thread from now on - yet you keep coming back: that says alot....

Fez WQ · 19-03-2012, 10:18 PM

Mate.... You want my pin number too ....

I would not waste my time or My Uncles time nor my relatives time. You already have a uneducated idea on what you car ment to be doing.

All I can say is go buy a spare new engine for it, or stock up on pistons if its a real problem you seem certain your going to need them. There has been over 1000000 fiestas sold ... how many with burnt pistions.

Seriously when you engine blows up and has burn marks in you pistons as a result of pinging then come back to this forum with something helpful to add to the thread

Thanks have a great evening

Aaron

Fiesta_Man69 · 19-03-2012, 11:05 PM

Called your bluff: you're unable to back yourself up, besides naming your mechanical "experts" as family members. I'm not interested in debating with someone who creates fiction then tries to pass it off as fact. Once again, called your bluff and you've been found wanting. Suggest you start a thread: "Pinging is good for your engine" - see how many people you get to agree with you. Good luck.

Fez WQ · 20-03-2012, 12:14 AM

Called you bluff- No i called my own bluff ....by offering you my families details- But after considering your total lack of knowledge and understanding..... I understand that you have made up your own ideas on the matter and no single person is going to change your thoughts.

As every time you start your car you hear the rattle ...................you mind confirms your belief

The amasing thing is this is your second thread that has been so negative along with no doubt many other web sites.

You only solution is trade up ..... to maybe a barina spark or maybe a a VW polo

You need to start your own web site and mechanical workshop you will make a killing from your pinging fiesta engines.
Call my bluff yeah right !!

Family experts!! yes, you are correct on that point. One works for John Deere and also worked for New Holland for over 20 years. The other has His own mechanical work shop and has been a mechanic for over 45 years. The other perosn works for Ultra tune on a suburb south of Perth. My car has done 55000km it has been serviced by many different work shops

Moderators shut this thread this person is a Ford Basher and does not have the respect for others and has negative attitudes to other forums members.

Fiesta_Man69 · 20-03-2012, 09:17 AM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fez WQ

As every time you start your car you hear the rattle ...................you mind confirms your belief.

Again, you fail to read threads before commenting. I clearly state that it doesn't happen all the time - around 70-80%. It is worse in the summer. Cold, wet - doesn't happen.

But again I stress: its useless arguing a point with someone who creates fiction and passes it off as fact: you offer to provide evidence (such as contact details) then reveal them to be family members - I don't believe anyone works for Joh Deere etc... again you would have raised this ages ago if it were true.

Again, if I were Ford bashing I would have said ALL Fezs are like this when I clearly state that 90-95% are fine and will have no problem - hardly bashing really.

Please ignore this thread from now on... and don't whinge to the moderators because you lost a healthy debate comprehensively.

trumpy73 · 20-03-2012, 02:03 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by Fiesta_Man69

Again, if I were Ford bashing I would have said ALL Fezs are like this when I clearly state that 90-95% are fine and will have no problem - hardly bashing really.

Ironically, when I mentioned the pinging issues to my dealer, he says they ALL do it!!

In any event I'm going to sell mine in a few months anyway and I'm sure most buyers wouldn't even know what a ping is so I shouldn't have too many dramas.

One thing is for sure, I won't be buying a Ford again. I got burnt with my first brand new car (in 20 years) and even if the rest of their range is fantastic I wouldn't be going near it.

greenfoam · 20-03-2012, 09:23 PM

All you guys with pinging Fiesta's really just get the tune updated down at your local Ford..... assuming they are competent enough to do it but that's another story. The current Australia tunes are not as aggressive as they were early on. Ours pinged on 91 octane fuel initially but somewhere along the line got a different ie craper tune and it's run fine on 91 ever since. Lost a bit of mojo and economy with that update though. I reckon we would also do a 5 door ST but if that doesn't arrive next time wont be a Ford not because of the cars, just the dealers

Fiesta_Man69 · 20-03-2012, 09:45 PM

Quote:

Originally Posted by greenfoam

All you guys with pinging Fiesta's really just get the tune updated down at your local Ford..... assuming they are competent enough to do it but that's another story. The current Australia tunes are not as aggressive as they were early on. Ours pinged on 91 octane fuel initially but somewhere along the line got a different ie craper tune and it's run fine on 91 ever since. Lost a bit of mojo and economy with that update though. I reckon we would also do a 5 door ST but if that doesn't arrive next time wont be a Ford not because of the cars, just the dealers

Yep: should be able to, but been thru heaps if ECU "updates" to no real effect. (why the updates? I believe one was for cold starting problems on Aussie Fezs - a problem I didn't have... The others? Who knows really? They wouldn't release updates if there was nothing wrong, surely?)

And I agree about the cars/dealers comment. Every manufacturer has it's issues, most Fezs are fine - indeed the Fez is superior to the Mazda 2 but is being outsold 2 to 1, but the Ford dealer network (rip Dale Ford, for example) and Ford customer care line are simply horrendous. Hopefully those who never have an issue with their Ford will never have to know how bad things are when the word "warranty" gets mentioned....