Falcon I6 to be dropped in favour of a V6

[OZQUAD44]

After reading most of this thread. I'd like to add some random thoughts:

The I6 going..... gawd I hope not. As has been said in the past, we all talk V8s but at the end of the day its most likely an I6 sitting in the garage. Its going to be a bitter pill to swallow to see the I6 go. They better do a goddambloody good job if they replace it I tells ya.

A change in configeration is all about the size of the I6 and would have stuff-all to do with outputs. A V6 or an I6 can be designed to pump out the same torque and power as each other. Power is all to do with head design, compression ratios, and bore to stroke ratios and very little to do with the shape of the block. V6's are generally high revers because they have a shorter stroke. If you made a V6 with a longer stroke (equivilent to an I6) then, relativly speaking, the engine would have similar height and width dramas that the mighty Boss has. thats why they are (relative to our beloved I6) short stroke motors. I6 can be designed to use as little fuel as any V6, don't be saying its all about power or fuel economy. It has to be all about vehicle platform configuration thats all.

Internal combustions engines ain't dead either. Just as soon as petrol is constantly about 2 bucks a litre, then ethanol becomes a viable option. Australian farmers get an industry back, the U.S. dosen't have to go around the world securing oil reserves, and we get to run our motors on 13:1 compression ratios. Blowing the doors of any poxy hybrid/electric/fuel cell w#nk mobile the lefties want to throw at us.

I spent some time in a third world country that was (long story) cut off from free trade for a period of time. That ment no more fuel. The igenious locals converted their old chitbox toyotas to run on (refined) coconut oil, Fair Dinkum! Now I saw inside one of these motors. It wasn't pretty but it bloody worked.

So don't go telling me our I6 is dead or that internal combustion motors are dead, they'll be around long after your fuel cell has perculated its last dilithium crystal and spilled its guts all over your pristine polished concrete garage floor and way way after your whiney little V6 has rattled its last harmonic balancer into oblivion.

All my comments in this post come with a fully backed 5/10 warranty........

[b0son]

Originally Posted by Hunter

Err unless you have driven a brand-new out of the factory Falcon you can't comment on the engine

I have a BA since new. Had an EF before that. Despite all the talk of big improvements leading to the BA, at the end of the day, you closed your eyes, and you knew they were fundamentaly the same.

Idle all over the place as well as low rpm engine shake, wheezy and harsh top end. It feels every bit the engine developed on a budget. For all the years Ford has been working on this engine, why does its fundamental character remain unchanged?

most of the I6 falcon motors that idle and sound like crap are like that because they weren't maintained properly...

Doesnt say much then for the quality of Ford dealer servicing then, does it?

[OZQUAD44]

Originally Posted by b0son

I have a BA since new. Had an EF before that. Despite all the talk of big improvements leading to the BA, at the end of the day, you closed your eyes, and you knew they were fundamentaly the same.

Idle all over the place as well as low rpm engine shake, wheezy and harsh top end. It feels every bit the engine developed on a budget. For all the years Ford has been working on this engine, why does its fundamental character remain unchanged?

I have to disagree. My 04 XR6 donk is a beauty. smooth idle with nice rev up top. an improvement to my previous ford OHC I6's: XH, EB, and worlds apart from my previous push rod I6's XC, XB, and XY. Which BA have you got, Taxi Pack? Even the journo's rated the Base model BA so I think you being a trite harsh with your comments.

[andrewts]

Who's sick of the Camry V6/Aurion? You will be...

Originally Posted by b0son

I have a BA since new. Had an EF before that. Despite all the talk of big improvements leading to the BA, at the end of the day, you closed your eyes, and you knew they were fundamentaly the same.

Idle all over the place as well as low rpm engine shake, wheezy and harsh top end. It feels every bit the engine developed on a budget. For all the years Ford has been working on this engine, why does its fundamental character remain unchanged?

Well if it's any consilation, my dad's Whorion sounds like a truck, and idles all over the place (that is, when it comes down from 2000RPM), not to mention the grinding noises as you go along the drive, christ knows what that is. Not to mention, it's gutless. Fast, but gutless.

Seriously people, we can spend all day fault finding and being picky, but it seems to me that the Camry V6 has not "changed the game" as they put it, because the only thing it offers over a Falcon, is speed. I mean come on, the fundamental design of the BFII is dating back to '02, and the design of this car was made on a budget, it's clear Ford doesn't have a money tree. But Toyota, sells a V6 Camry, with new lights and scuff plates to differentiate from the 4 cyl, that is a brand new model, and the only thing it offers over the aged Falcon, is speed. Think about it.

Pros of a Camry V6.
- Percieved reliability
- 0.08 seconds faster than a 6A Falcon to 100km/h
- Hooks in the boot for shopping bags

Cons of a Camry V6
- Front Wheel Drive
- Screamy gutless weak little engine (no towing)
- Frightening handling
- Poor ride comfort
- Poor NVH
- No access to boot from car worth having
- Foot operated park brake? I mean the Umbrella brake was one thing, but come on!
- Terrible, terrible sound system
- Radio surround that, when illuminated, can be seen from space
- Sounds like a diesel
- Body isn't fully painted (under the bootlid??)
- Nasty fuel guage, gets to 1/4 and drops like a lead balloon
- Super duper plastic dash! It rattles and creaks, and isn't padded.
- Convex mirrors. It might seem like a great idea, but, for some it's plain dangerous.
- Plastic woodgrain that you feel like you could replace with a DATS ruler if it fell off

And the list goes on. So, let's stop comparing the Falcon to the Camry V6, because the only thing it does, is go fast in a straight line. Not much faster, and it uses a hell of a lot more fuel doing so. Silly piece of crap.

End of story! Rargh!

[Full Spectrum]

Originally Posted by sleekism

I have been reading this thread and absolutely ****ing myself with laughter!

Are people seriously comparin the Falcon to the Aurion????

Are people here preaching the superiority of the Aurion and the V6 actually driven the Toyota???

I was expecting big things when I first drove the new Aurion it looke big and boofy like an Australian car should but I was sadly mistaken. The Aurion is mismatched shitbox.

The motor revs cleanly and high but it does not work well in a large and heavy FWD car.
In a smaller 3 series sized RWD car it would work well but the Aurion is the result of tight *** Toyota and their half assed efforts. Has anybody tried to turn a corner in the Aurion? Has anybody read the latest Wheels comparo with the Aurion?

As for the criticism being levelled at the Barra and the Falcon in general I can simply not believe it! Are these people driving the same car??
The Barra 190's at work grunt like a V8 and rev like a Honda, even my old Fairmont revs quite well. That's the thing I love about the Barra it's ability to match a torquey bottom end to a devastating top end!

Quality problems with the Falcon?? I never saw a tow truck throughout my entire childhood and that including growing up around the supposedly bad XT and XE.

My experience with Fords is that the electronics might go crap but it will never leave you stranded.

I hate repeating mself like a bloody parrot but I don't see the big deal about Toyotas supposed quality. The new Aurions at work have already been back to the workshop a few times, as have the Holdens, the Mitsubishis and happily there has only been one incident with one of the Fords (yep some crappy little electronic locking problem).

The Falcon six is a brilliant engine and it would be stupid to replace it as I don't think Ford have anything to match it's stump pulling power in their catalogue.
And for the Toyota lovers get your hand off it the Aurion is nothing special at all it doesn't rev any better than my 91 SOHC Laser, it's actually proved to be thirstier than the Falcon and the fact that Toyota rollling in cash can only build a car 0.1 seconds faster than a last generation, RWD and heavier base model falcon is just sad.

You just haven't meet my brother and his BA yet.. In 20min he will scream he's head off and you wont get a word in not even i can shut him up when he goes off about it..
But that's another story i'll be looking into in another section on the forum soon.

[Deadman]

I personally must say that the best V6 I have ever driven (out of the locally built cars) isn't Toyota or Holden, but Mitsubishi. Now this is just my experience, but from driving all 4 large cars fairly regularly over the past 6-7 years, I found that on a whole, out of the V6's - the Magna has always felt like it was the better engine. Granted that it's only recently that I've driven a Toyota V6, but I'd still vote the Mitsubishi V6 to be the best of the 3.

That being said, I chose the BA because I loved it - and I REALLY like the I6. Since day 1, I've always liked how it feels and how much the torque comes in handy. So IMO it would be a shame to loose the I6 because it's such a great all-round 6cyl engine, esspecially for large cars! But I don't see the big deal with the Holden / Toyota V6's - Mitsubishi always had them beat in that area.

(note: the above comments are in relation to the feel of the engine, not the cars as a whole. in saying that, I understand that car size and overall design has an impact on how the engine 'feels' - but I'm trying not to get overcomplicated and over my head, just my 2c on what my impressions are. I'm not talking about what is the fastest etc, just my impression on the engines themselves over a period of years)

Anyway, Ford I6 forever!! :P

[OzJavelin]

I suppose I'm just a tad too old, but I have no affection for Ford I6s (as apposed to V8s). I still remember when Ford dropped V8s and left the EFI 4.1 as "top dog" .. sad days. I also still remember early Ford 6s like the AWESOME 144ci cyls with their god aweful cast-in-head manifolds, etc. All very uninspiring. Yeah things started to look up with the pre-BA XR6s, and the now with the BA/BF XR6Ts, but as for the rest of them they are just the "cooking models" that average Joe flogs to work and back. I can't really understand the outrage at the loss? If Ford converts to a V6 they'll just do what they always do in recent times to keep up .. forced induction. Holden have shown that you can keep local RHD config using a global engine utilised as FWD for other platforms/countries ..

[merlin]

Originally Posted by OZQUAD44

Internal combustions engines ain't dead either. Just as soon as petrol is constantly about 2 bucks a litre, then ethanol becomes a viable option. Australian farmers get an industry back, the U.S. dosen't have to go around the world securing oil reserves, and we get to run our motors on 13:1 compression ratios. Blowing the doors of any poxy hybrid/electric/fuel cell w#nk mobile the lefties want to throw at us.

I don't think ethanol will ever be a viable option - uses more energy than it creates. Hydrogen is where it is at.

[ltd]

Deadman I'd agree, I always found the mitsubishi 6 better all round than the Coffee Grinder full of bolts Holden and the wheezy Toyota. Yes I have driven Aurion and whilst no doubt powerful, unimpressive on torque and sounds like a chronic smoker laughing when you give it to it. Mitsubishi always seemed to sound like and deliver more than it was supposed to. I prefer the I6 over any of them but, if I had to make a choice as to which V6 to go with out of todays cars, Mitsubishi for me too. Hopefully todays V6's won't be like the old ones which blew valve stem seals at 90,000 klm and before.

[DK30RB]

Originally Posted by andrewts

Who's sick of the Camry V6/Aurion? You will be...


Well if it's any consilation, my dad's Whorion sounds like a truck, and idles all over the place (that is, when it comes down from 2000RPM), not to mention the grinding noises as you go along the drive, christ knows what that is. Not to mention, it's gutless. Fast, but gutless.

Seriously people, we can spend all day fault finding and being picky, but it seems to me that the Camry V6 has not "changed the game" as they put it, because the only thing it offers over a Falcon, is speed. I mean come on, the fundamental design of the BFII is dating back to '02, and the design of this car was made on a budget, it's clear Ford doesn't have a money tree. But Toyota, sells a V6 Camry, with new lights and scuff plates to differentiate from the 4 cyl, that is a brand new model, and the only thing it offers over the aged Falcon, is speed. Think about it.

Pros of a Camry V6.
- Percieved reliability
- 0.08 seconds faster than a 6A Falcon to 100km/h
- Hooks in the boot for shopping bags

Cons of a Camry V6
- Front Wheel Drive
- Screamy gutless weak little engine (no towing)
- Frightening handling
- Poor ride comfort
- Poor NVH
- No access to boot from car worth having
- Foot operated park brake? I mean the Umbrella brake was one thing, but come on!
- Terrible, terrible sound system
- Radio surround that, when illuminated, can be seen from space
- Sounds like a diesel
- Body isn't fully painted (under the bootlid??)
- Nasty fuel guage, gets to 1/4 and drops like a lead balloon
- Super duper plastic dash! It rattles and creaks, and isn't padded.
- Convex mirrors. It might seem like a great idea, but, for some it's plain dangerous.
- Plastic woodgrain that you feel like you could replace with a DATS ruler if it fell off

And the list goes on. So, let's stop comparing the Falcon to the Camry V6, because the only thing it does, is go fast in a straight line. Not much faster, and it uses a hell of a lot more fuel doing so. Silly piece of crap.

End of story! Rargh!

All this coming from someone who drives a 14 year old car.. Unless you spend equal amount of time in both cars, i don't think you are qualified to make comment. It seems to be that its common place for some people on these forums to make very one sided arguments. Lets present the pro's and cons from my perspective. (having owned both and BA and an Aurion)


Your List
Pros of a Camry V6.
- Percieved reliability (Demonstrated Reliabilty in my case)
- 0.08 seconds faster than a 6A Falcon to 100km/h 6A is an extra cost option on falcon. V6 kills the 4speed.
- Hooks in the boot for shopping bags

Cons of a Camry V6
- Front Wheel Drive. Why is this a negative. For the most part 95% of the driving public wouldn't even notice the difference.
- Screamy gutless weak little engine (no towing). Compared to my old BA, the V6 sounds quiter smoother, and less like is stuggling.
- Frightening handling Again, its not a race car, for everyday driving, 95% of the public, the Aurion Zr6 is great
- Poor ride comfort Compared to What, certainly not my BA XR6
- Poor NVH Compared to What, certainly not my BA XR6
- No access to boot from car worth having True.
- Foot operated park brake? I mean the Umbrella brake was one thing, but come on! Once you get used to it, its quite handy and out of the way.
- Terrible, terrible sound system personally, it leaves the one in my old BA for dead.
- Radio surround that, when illuminated, can be seen from space Toyota have released a fix to dim the display.
- Sounds like a diesel Mine doesn't
- Body isn't fully painted (under the bootlid??) Mine is
- Nasty fuel guage, gets to 1/4 and drops like a lead balloon Mine doesn't
- Super duper plastic dash! It rattles and creaks, and isn't padded. Mine is padded, and doesn't creak or rattle.
- Convex mirrors. It might seem like a great idea, but, for some it's plain dangerous. I've not had one incident where it's been dangerous, in fact there have been times where i have seen a car in my blind spot, that wouldn't have been visible in a normal mirror.
- Plastic woodgrain that you feel like you could replace with a DATS ruler if it fell off Don't have the wood grain, i have silver inserts so i cant comment.

Lets look at cons in a falcon from my perspective.
- Very Very Very bad resale
- Poor build quality.
- Complete lack of customer service when something goes wrong. usually met with "oh they all do that". That must make it ok then.
- Handbrake that never releases correctly,
- Trim that falls of.
- Brakes that require machining regularly from new..
- bad idle,
- harsh engine vibration under hard acceleration.
- poorly aligned trim
- constant electrical gremlins
- clunky diff
etc etc the list goes on.

I can speak from experience. I've owned both a BA Xr6 and now the Aurion Zr6 V6. I've done extensive kilometers in both under all conditions. I'm not toyota biased, this is my first toyota, and probably won't be my last.

[Redrum]

This rumour seems to pop its ugly head every few years in Australia. The day they get rid of the I6 from the Falcon line up will be the day they get rid of the Falcon from the Ford line up, as many have said, and this will depend on how well the Orion goes.

[Redrum]

Originally Posted by DK30RB

All this coming from someone who drives a 14 year old car.. Unless you spend equal amount of time in both cars, i don't think you are qualified to make comment. It seems to be that its common place for some people on these forums to make very one sided arguments. Lets present the pro's and cons from my perspective. (having owned both and BA and an Aurion)


Your List
Pros of a Camry V6.
- Percieved reliability (Demonstrated Reliabilty in my case)
- 0.08 seconds faster than a 6A Falcon to 100km/h 6A is an extra cost option on falcon. V6 kills the 4speed.
- Hooks in the boot for shopping bags

Cons of a Camry V6
- Front Wheel Drive. Why is this a negative. For the most part 95% of the driving public wouldn't even notice the difference.
- Screamy gutless weak little engine (no towing). Compared to my old BA, the V6 sounds quiter smoother, and less like is stuggling.
- Frightening handling Again, its not a race car, for everyday driving, 95% of the public, the Aurion Zr6 is great
- Poor ride comfort Compared to What, certainly not my BA XR6
- Poor NVH Compared to What, certainly not my BA XR6
- No access to boot from car worth having True.
- Foot operated park brake? I mean the Umbrella brake was one thing, but come on! Once you get used to it, its quite handy and out of the way.
- Terrible, terrible sound system personally, it leaves the one in my old BA for dead.
- Radio surround that, when illuminated, can be seen from space Toyota have released a fix to dim the display.
- Sounds like a diesel Mine doesn't
- Body isn't fully painted (under the bootlid??) Mine is
- Nasty fuel guage, gets to 1/4 and drops like a lead balloon Mine doesn't
- Super duper plastic dash! It rattles and creaks, and isn't padded. Mine is padded, and doesn't creak or rattle.
- Convex mirrors. It might seem like a great idea, but, for some it's plain dangerous. I've not had one incident where it's been dangerous, in fact there have been times where i have seen a car in my blind spot, that wouldn't have been visible in a normal mirror.
- Plastic woodgrain that you feel like you could replace with a DATS ruler if it fell off Don't have the wood grain, i have silver inserts so i cant comment.

Lets look at cons in a falcon from my perspective.
- Very Very Very bad resale
- Poor build quality.
- Complete lack of customer service when something goes wrong. usually met with "oh they all do that". That must make it ok then.
- Handbrake that never releases correctly,
- Trim that falls of.
- Brakes that require machining regularly from new..
- bad idle,
- harsh engine vibration under hard acceleration.
- poorly aligned trim
- constant electrical gremlins
- clunky diff
etc etc the list goes on.

I can speak from experience. I've owned both a BA Xr6 and now the Aurion Zr6 V6. I've done extensive kilometers in both under all conditions. I'm not toyota biased, this is my first toyota, and probably won't be my last.

Nice to see someone from Toyota posting here on the forums. You will find little or no support here. We are all Ford fanatics. Go FORD!!!

[DK30RB]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Nice to see someone from Toyota posting here on the forums. You will find little or no support here. We are all Ford fanatics. Go FORD!!!

Firstly, i'm not from toyota, secondly i'm not asking for or expect any support.

If you bother to notice my earlier posts. Here is a list of cars i have owned.

Since 1994 i have owned (purchased myself, not given as company cars)

94 EF Futura (1 year old)
95 Pulsar N15 (New)
96 EF II Future (1 year old)
99 AUI (new)
2000 AUII (new) + 2002 Impreza RS (new)
2003 BA XR6(New)
2005 Liberty 3.0R-B (new) - 2006 Outback 2.5i (New)
2007 Toyota Aurion ZR6 (new) (still have the 2006 outback).

Strongest bias seems to have been towards ford. (5 fords -v- 3 Subaru's, 1 Toyota, and a Nissan) The only difference now, is that i've seen the reality of what Ford is, and it's opened my eyes to a whole world full of much much better cars.

Some people here need to open their eyes and accept that there are other makes and model out there and that the Falcon isn't the be all and end all of the motoring world.

A lot of you talk like it would be the end of your world if the Falcon was released as a V6. Move on, get over it, wake up and open your minds to something other than a Falcon.

[mowog]

Originally Posted by DK30RB

A lot of you talk like it would be the end of your world if the Falcon was released as a V6. Move on, get over it, wake up and open your minds to something other than a Falcon.

I am recent convert to Ford and I have owned 3 Toyota's in recent times. All were good cars the Corolla Sportivo was the most interesting of all. Would I buy another Toyota? Not likely I am over the appliance on wheels attitude that Toyota have in their cars. I brought and an XR6 Turbo Ute this year and I had forgotten how much fun a powerfull RWD car is. There is nothing that Toyota produces that can match the fun of coming out of a corner under power on the edge of oversteer and feeling the rear wheels pushing you out of the corner. This is not intended to start a FWD vs RWD debate its just how I feel about the current range of Toyota passanger sedans.

The V6 in the Falcon? well thats 3 years away who cares...

[sexr6tasy]

Originally Posted by DK30RB

Firstly, i'm not from toyota, secondly i'm not asking for or expect any support.

If you bother to notice my earlier posts. Here is a list of cars i have owned.

Since 1994 i have owned (purchased myself, not given as company cars)

94 EF Futura (1 year old)
95 Pulsar N15 (New)
96 EF II Future (1 year old)
99 AUI (new)
2000 AUII (new) + 2002 Impreza RS (new)
2003 BA XR6(New)
2005 Liberty 3.0R-B (new) - 2006 Outback 2.5i (New)
2007 Toyota Aurion ZR6 (new) (still have the 2006 outback).

Strongest bias seems to have been towards ford. (5 fords -v- 3 Subaru's, 1 Toyota, and a Nissan) The only difference now, is that i've seen the reality of what Ford is, and it's opened my eyes to a whole world full of much much better cars.

Some people here need to open their eyes and accept that there are other makes and model out there and that the Falcon isn't the be all and end all of the motoring world.

A lot of you talk like it would be the end of your world if the Falcon was released as a V6. Move on, get over it, wake up and open your minds to something other than a Falcon.

Hahaha dude this is a ford forum we all love fords its the reason were here of course there's better cars then ford but theres better cars then any other cars made to its called the buggeti veyron. I think you need to wake up get over the fact your on a ford forum "most" of the people on this site grew up with the e-series, au, now ba/bf of course were gonna love the I6 engine that won all our old drags and all the other bullshit we did when we were younger so stop sounding like a child who the rest of the children wont agree with and build a bridge and get over it.

[TUF270]

Originally Posted by Redrum

Nice to see someone from Toyota posting here on the forums. You will find little or no support here. We are all Ford fanatics. Go FORD!!!

i agree....we can find problems with any car...the aurion is not gods gift....give it a few years and it will start having its probs. ur comparing a new car to an older ba...they make inprovements over the years...even tho i own a ba turbo ute i would have to say that the series 2 bf turbos would kill my car for refnement and finish...its called evolving and car makers fix issues as they arise in models..and make the next one beta...i like the look of the aurions but thats as far as it goes...im not a fan of toyota but im not gonna sit here and bag them...they all have there good and bad points...always have always will.... not every car is the same...i hav only had one problem with my ba and that was the diff...other than that it has been great...compare it to the aurion when it comes out....i think it will be a different storry once again...and then the new aurion will come out...diff story again....and so on...

[b0son]

Originally Posted by andrewts

Cons of a Camry V6
- Front Wheel Drive

Thats a con for the enthusiast, but a pro for pretty much anyone else. Its unlikely the rear end is going to snap away on a wet road like it can in a BA, and its also unlikely the majority of drivers would be able to catch it when it does.

My FWD Golf GTI hoses my BA. If anything, the BA has far worse low-speed understeer than the Golf, ie. most real-world driving.

- Screamy gutless weak little engine (no towing)

People keep bringing out towing, but at the end of the day, the majority of falcadores I see dont have a towbar. And the only time you'd need the low-end torque for towing is if you're towing something fairly substantial, like boat or caravan. Most dont have either.

- Frightening handling

See comments above.

- Poor NVH

The Falcon has without doubt one of the worst drivetrains going. My BA has driveline vibrations, shunt and diff clunk that is so bad, my dad's diesel landcruiser is smoother. My BA is 'within tolerances', which suggests its far from an isolated example.

- Terrible, terrible sound system

And the base unit in the Falcon is any better? Its rubbish.

- Body isn't fully painted (under the bootlid??)

Or the falcon.... all over the body! I havent seen a Falcon, at least since AU with silver and variants (ie. ice mint, mercury) that didnt have quite noticeable 'tiger' stripes down the sides. Ford's painting QC is a joke.

[Scott]

Originally Posted by DK30RB

Some people here need to open their eyes and accept that there are other makes and model out there and that the Falcon isn't the be all and end all of the motoring world.

Some people need to open their eyes and accept that there are still brand loyalists out there who are passionate about their team - even if it has it's warts.

Originally Posted by DK30RB

A lot of you talk like it would be the end of your world if the Falcon was released as a V6. Move on, get over it, wake up and open your minds to something other than a Falcon.

Identity is something a Toyota fan will never enjoy or understand.

[BigAL_250]

When did this turn into a Toyota bashing thread?
You know, there are other manufacturers who make V6's.

Maybe we should get back to the I6 v V6 rather than arguing between Falcon and Camry

[|||]

The fact that the Camry is being even discussed as a Falcon alternative suggests to me that Ford has bigger problems than the shape of their blocks

[andrewts]

Originally Posted by DK30RB

All this coming from someone who drives a 14 year old car.. Unless you spend equal amount of time in both cars, i don't think you are qualified to make comment. It seems to be that its common place for some people on these forums to make very one sided arguments. Lets present the pro's and cons from my perspective. (having owned both and BA and an Aurion)

It is true that I own an old car, and it's very good. However, having spent long enough in different Aurions, Falcons and Commodores in various forms (dad's car, taxis, hire cars etc) I can tell you that Aurions are not in a league of their own, that's for sure. Without going too much further I will just say that it is two way, it comes down to human factor.

The Falcon isn't the greatest, but you'd be sadly mistaken if you thought an Aurion has "changed the game". For what it is, you would expect quality, X-Factor/Image and intuitive designs in it, such as those found in a Mazda 3, but instead you get chunks of plastic, a feeling of a mass produced product/appliance.

Originally Posted by b0son

Thats a con for the enthusiast, but a pro for pretty much anyone else. Its unlikely the rear end is going to snap away on a wet road like it can in a BA, and its also unlikely the majority of drivers would be able to catch it when it does.

My FWD Golf GTI hoses my BA. If anything, the BA has far worse low-speed understeer than the Golf, ie. most real-world driving.

Well the rear end won't snap away, the front will. When you feed it power, you torque steer into the next lane, the wheels spin as the front becomes light and you understeer into a kerb. 200KW V6 with FWD in a big family car. Genius!

Your GTI probably does beat your Falcon. It's small, light, grippy and designed to be driven like hell. An XR6 is a sporty family sedan, not a Supercar.

Originally Posted by b0son

People keep bringing out towing, but at the end of the day, the majority of falcadores I see dont have a towbar. And the only time you'd need the low-end torque for towing is if you're towing something fairly substantial, like boat or caravan. Most dont have either.

They might not have towbars, but the oppurtunity is there. The low end torque of the I6 is useful in more ways than just towing. You don't have to revv the guts out of your engine to move off the line, and power is smooth and available across the rev range. The V6s, all three, Commo, Aurion and 380 all work best when they scream their guts out and gobble up petrol. Otherwise, you go slow.

Originally Posted by b0son

See comments above.

The handling issue is not a biggie if you tootle about town at 50km/h, granted. But my father and I took his Aurion on the Great Ocean Road, and to be honest, an AUI in front of us was doing a better job. FWD is a small car thing, it really is.

Originally Posted by b0son

The Falcon has without doubt one of the worst drivetrains going. My BA has driveline vibrations, shunt and diff clunk that is so bad, my dad's diesel landcruiser is smoother. My BA is 'within tolerances', which suggests its far from an isolated example.

It might be, but 95% of taxi drivers agree, the Falcon is the lesser of the three evils.

Originally Posted by b0son

And the base unit in the Falcon is any better? Its rubbish.

Personally, yes frankly. The poor acoustics of the Aurion and the 150Hz low shelf filter for bass is just terrible. If you like constant doof doof bass and rattling door trims, then yes the Aurion is good. But there is more to a stereo than bass, and from where I stand, the stereo in my ED cains the Aurion, and the BA/BF is better. But that is subjective.

Originally Posted by b0son

Or the falcon.... all over the body! I havent seen a Falcon, at least since AU with silver and variants (ie. ice mint, mercury) that didnt have quite noticeable 'tiger' stripes down the sides. Ford's painting QC is a joke.

I've not noticed that, which doesn't mean it doesn't happen, but it just surprised me that the underside of the bootlid wasn't body colour in the Aurions I have been in.

How we got onto this was the comparison between Aurion and Falcon engines, and this thread has gone way off. Who would have thought there were so many Toyota drivers on this website! Basically, the sum of it is that there is no substitute for cubic inches, and in a big family car, torque is a useful thing to have. V6 engines such as the Durateq, the Alloytech and the Toyota would all rely heavily upon gearing to get a big car moving, which means drivability takes a hit.

The low torque of the I6 allows you to rest your foot on the go pedal and choose any speed, the gearbox and engine are all for it, but a V6 Commodore, for example is different. After being in a VZ with the Alloytech it became truly apparent to me that cubes and torque are neccesary, and the reason so many people would be upset is that putting a V6 in the Falcon would take away the smooth pleasure of driving one.

The 4.0L V6 Hilux engine may be an exception to this rule, because whilst it is only slightly undersquare, it still has high RPMs for torque and power, and the levels aren't that high. Now I'm not as quick thinking as some, but why would it be? Is it and understressed engine? Something to do with compression? Here are the specs:

[CODE]V6 PETROL
1GRFE
V6 DOHC with 4 valves per cylinde
with variable valve intake timing (VV

Electronic Fuel Injection
Unleaded Petrol
3956cc
94.0 x 95.0 (Bore/Stroke mm)
10.0:1 (Comp)
175/5200 (Power kW)
376 / 3800 (auto) (Torque Nm)
343 / 24004800 (manual) (Torque Nm)[/CODE]

[MeestaNob!]

Originally Posted by |||

The fact that the Camry is being even discussed as a Falcon alternative suggests to me that Ford has bigger problems than the shape of their blocks

No, it just means Holden's offerings arent GOOD ENOUGH to talk about as a competitor.

Which is $1B worse.

[Venomous1]

Originally Posted by MeestaNob!

No, it just means Holden's offerings arent GOOD ENOUGH to talk about as a competitor.

Which is $1B worse.

Good Answer

[BigAL_250]

Yeah, at least we know the V6 were getting is a good engine, even if the name is way to similar for my liking (Alloytec / Duratec)

[Hunter]

I reckon the Toyota lovers should take their bowls hats and wrap-around old person sunnies and go home - I think its established that they don't like Falcons and we don't like their fridges on wheels. :

[andrewts]

From here: http://www.fordforums.com.au/showthread.php?p=1588232#post1588232

Originally Posted by TTonka

Fresh from Autoblog .....

Sounds alright if they can get some torque down low out of it. Perhaps by the time it is ready for the Falcon (If this goes ahead) they might have worked it to be grunty. Another thing, we would have to part with the beloved ZF 6 speed if a new motor is to be used, wouldn't we...

[BigAL_250]

This is true, no more ZF, but by 2010 there may be a better box anyway (like a DSG)

[b0son]

Originally Posted by andrewts

Well the rear end won't snap away, the front will.

But for the average driver, which is the more dangerous. Dont answer that, we all know what the answer is.That said, I prefer RWD, but the average driver who wants to get from A to B and no more, they dont care.

My dad got a Presara, I asked what he thought of the Fairmont. He simply laughed. Standard equipment, refinement, no contest in his eyes. Bear in mind he is 'downgrading' from a Merc.

They might not have towbars, but the oppurtunity is there. The low end torque of the I6 is useful in more ways than just towing. You don't have to revv the guts out of your engine to move off the line, and power is smooth and available across the rev range.

I disagree. The BA feels like its working overtime throughout the rev range. Yes, it does have torque, but it doesnt feel like it has anywhere near what's quoted, and it certainly doesnt deliver it effortlessly. If it could talk, it would say "here's your 190kW... just give me a minute to get my breath"

The handling issue is not a biggie if you tootle about town at 50km/h, granted. But my father and I took his Aurion on the Great Ocean Road, and to be honest, an AUI in front of us was doing a better job.

Not knowing how well your dad drives, your comment tells me nothing at all.

It might be, but 95% of taxi drivers agree, the Falcon is the lesser of the three evils.

95% of taxi drivers dont speak the language, so how do you know what they prefer?? :P

people would be upset is that putting a V6 in the Falcon would take away the smooth pleasure of driving one.

Sorry, but smooth and Falcon should not be used in the same breath.

[sleekism]

Why is there even a debate here it's reall getting quite frustrating!

Modern alloy V6's are crap end of story!

If you want to produce real power you need a straight six, OHC and a cast iron block all the best cars have cast iron blocks for example: Mitsubishi Evo, Nissan Skyline and Toyota Supra.

These had CAST IRON BLOCKS and the Skyline and Supra were STRAIGHT SIXES!!!

Any wonder why the next BMW six is reverting back to a cast iron block??

The Aurion UNDERSTEERS and the 200kw version is the ONLY variant.

Do you know Toyota has declared that the TRD Aurion is NOT a HSV and FPV competitor. Any guesses why?

It's a fact FWD only works in SMALL cars and when you have LESS than 200kw-even the Mazda 3 MPS has serious traction and understeer issue.

If Toyota want to fix the problem they should make it AWD it's the cheapest and an effective soloution.

Do these Ford baggers know that Ford was rated number one in quality in the UK?

BTW I agree the Mitsi 380 has the best V6 in i's class suprising but true the capacity advantage over Commodore and Aurion probably helps.

[andrewts]

Originally Posted by b0son

But for the average driver, which is the more dangerous. Dont answer that, we all know what the answer is.That said, I prefer RWD, but the average driver who wants to get from A to B and no more, they dont care.

Frankly, it looks like the Aurion is for the average driver. The Commodore, Falcon, and 380 at least have a semblance of spirit!

Originally Posted by b0son

My dad got a Presara, I asked what he thought of the Fairmont. He simply laughed. Standard equipment, refinement, no contest in his eyes. Bear in mind he is 'downgrading' from a Merc.

My downgraded from an EL Ghia V8 to a Prodigy, but only because his V8 kept overheating. If it weren't for that, he'd never have even looked at a new car.

Originally Posted by b0son

I disagree. The BA feels like its working overtime throughout the rev range. Yes, it does have torque, but it doesnt feel like it has anywhere near what's quoted, and it certainly doesnt deliver it effortlessly. If it could talk, it would say "here's your 190kW... just give me a minute to get my breath"

Well considering the weight of the BA, I'm sure the engine is damped down a little. If an Aurion could talk, it'd speak Japanese, really really fast, and none of it would make sense.

Originally Posted by b0son

Not knowing how well your dad drives, your comment tells me nothing at all.

Well, not a tearabout, but not a granny either.

Originally Posted by b0son

95% of taxi drivers dont speak the language, so how do you know what they prefer?? :P

Because 95% of taxis are Falcons. I know I wouldn't buy a car that I didn't want to drive all day long! That and cabbies say they get roughly 450,000KM out of a Commodore engine, and 800,000KM to 1,000,000KM out of a Falcon engine, so having as small an amount of money as they might, they want a product that will last.

Originally Posted by b0son

Sorry, but smooth and Falcon should not be used in the same breath.

Ever driven an 8? My old man's Ghia could melt cheese the way it accelerated so smoothly...

There's nothing smooth about the way a Camry V6 accelerates. The gearbox fiddles about for a second picking a gear, it chooses reverse, decides that's not the best, picks 1, then you snap forward as the revs hit 6000RPM, the gearbox doesn't like it, slams into second, the front wheels spin and the traction control grabs them hard as it goes bang repeatedly...

In summary, I think we should agree that because this is FORD Forums, you'll never win, and that we should put the debate to rest, honourably declaring me one-eyed, and you a Camry driver. :